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jeepnmatt 
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 Topic: Have I killed my tank?
Posted: October 29 2009 at 3:21am |
Okay, so I've been up and running for about 4-6 months. I am thinking I may have made a HUGE mistake. I had a bristle worm problem after buying some used rock from someone online...live and learn. These things were HUGE, upwards of 18 inches long, but suprisingly fast, I built traps, tried fishing them out with tools, nothing. There were LOTS and LOTS of them, I'd say at least 75 in my 75 gallon tank.
On to my dire mistake...so I was researching for hours and stumbled across a site online that said I could treat my tank with a medication called Fenbendazole (Panacur). I did quite a bit of research on it, and even called local exotic pet vet's offices. All told me "yeah, no problem, it will take care of them with no side effects" So off I go to the vet's office and pick some up. Keep in mind this was when my tank was VERY new, like a few weeks old. So here I am at six months or so, fish as healthy as can be, water perameters great. I can keep fish, crabs, shrimp, but if I toss a anemone or anything of the like in there, they die within a few short hours.
I have posted previously on here asking what could be the problem. You guys all gave me insight on water perameters etc. I apologize I didn't bring this up earlier, but honestly I had put it way behind me. I never looked back or thought anything about it once the DOCTOR at the vet's office told me it was a go. Anyway, I've done massive water changes trying to correct things (I thought maybe it was still a reminant in the water). Do you all think my tank is toast for ever becoming a reef? If so that way sucks, but I guess you live and learn.
Thanks for your input, and no reason to tell me what a stupid move this was, I have already figured this out myself. UGH
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Thanks for your help!
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CapnMorgan
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 4:55am |
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Have you tested for copper? Copper is a huge killer of corals and inverts. Also have you ran carbon since adding the medication? If not it can still be in the system even with water changes and needs to be removed. Another thing could be inadequate light. Most anemone's need a lot of light, preferrably provided by T5's or MH's but lots of PC light can work as well. But it seems doubtful lighting is the issue if livestock is dying in hours not days or weeks. What is your SG level? Are you drip acclimating your anemones and inverts? They can be very sensitive to changes in water parameters and should always be drip acclimated. If it were me I would test for copper, or any other heavy metals that could be in the water. Do you use tap water or RO?
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Steve My Old 180G Mixed ReefCurrently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8
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kdinkel
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 8:19am |
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I used panacur in a sea horse tank and it worked great for what I was trying to kill (jellies) but one of the sites I read said that often you can treat once and be good for a long time as it stays in the rocks. When I broke down the tank I discarded the rocks as I didn't want them in my reef. I wasn't worried about anemonies (I didn't know that would be an issue) but it can cause astrea snails issues as well. I was never able to keep an astrea or turbo alive in that tank after that.
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29 gallon reef
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Aquarium Creations
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 8:22am |
Here is a list of active ingredients in that stuff.
TD.01432
Teklad 2018S 18% Sterilizable Rodent Diet with Fenbendazole
Product Description —Panacur® granules (22.2% Fenbendazole) are added to our
Teklad Global 18% Protein Sterilizable Diet as a practical and effective means to
eradicate pinworms. Designed to supply approximately 150 mg of Fenbendazole
per kilogram of diet, Teklad Global 18% Protein Sterilizable Diet with
Fenbendazole is a fixed-formula diet designed to withstand autoclaving or
irradiation, and to retain the nutrient composition and balance necessary to
support the efficient growth, maintenance and reproduction of research rodents.
To assure adequate nutrient levels and balance, additional supplemental levels of
the most labile vitamins [vitamin A, thiamine, pantothenic acid, and vitamin K
(menadione sodium bisulfite complex)] are included to compensate for losses of
these nutrients during autoclaving or irradiation. Read the directions section
prior to use. This product contains no animal protein, making it very low in
nitrosamines. TD.01432 contains no alfalfa meal and reduced levels of soybean
meal thus lowering the occurance of natural phytoestrogens.
Proximate Analysis
Crude Protein % 18.80%
Crude Fat % 6.00%
Crude Fiber % 3.80%
Ash % 5.90
NFE % 55.50
Carbohydrate % 57.26
Starch % 41.19
Sugar % 4.91
Digestible Energy Kcal/g 3.4(14.01)
Metabolizable Energy Kcal/g 3.3(13.70)
Minerals
Calcium % 1.01
Phosphorus % 0.65
Sodium % 0.23
Potassium % 0.68
Chloride % 0.40
Magnesium % 0.20
Iron mg/Kg 225.00
Manganese mg/Kg 118.00
Zinc mg/Kg 77.00
Copper mg/Kg 15.19 <------------------------------
Iodine(added) mg/Kg 11.55
Selenium mg/kg 0.20
Cobalt mg/Kg 0.63
Chromium mg/Kg 0.53
Amino Acids
Aspartic Acid % 1.41
Glutamic Acid % 3.69
Alanine % 1.08
Glycine % 0.79
Threonine % 0.67
Proline % 1.54
Serine % 0.97
Leucine % 1.94
Isoleucine % 0.85
Valine % 0.95
Phenylalanine % 0.99
Tyrosine % 0.61
Phe + Tyr % 1.60
Methionine % 0.43
Cystine % 0.33
Met + Cyst % 0.76
Lysine % 1.03
Histidine % 0.47
Arginine % 1.06
Tryptophan % 0.20
Available Lysine % 0.83
Vitamins
Vitamin A iu/g 30.70
Retinol mg/kg 9.31
Vitamin D 3 iu/g 2.05
Cholecalciferol μg/kg 51.18
Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) mg/kg 126.00
Vitamin K 3 (menadione) mg/kg 102.00
Vitamin B 1 (thiamine) mg/kg 117.60
Vitamin B 2 (riboflavin) mg/kg 27.20
Avail. Niacin (nicotinic acid) mg/kg 87.30
Vitamin B 6 (pyroxidine) mg/kg 26.80
Pantothenic Acid mg/kg 141.60
Vitamin B 12 (cyanocobalamin) mg/kg 0.15
Avail. Biotin mg/kg 0.82
Folate mg/kg 8.41
Vitamin C mg/kg —
Choline mg/kg 1120.00
B Carotene mg/kg 2.47
Inositol mg/kg 1445.00
Fatty Acids
SATURATED
C4:0 Butyric g/kg 0.00
C6:0 Caproic g/kg 0.00
C8:0 Caprylic g/kg 0.00
C10:0 Capric g/kg 0.00
C12:0 Lauric g/kg 0.26
C14:0 Myristic g/kg 0.06
C15:0 Pentadecanoic g/kg 0.00
C16:0 Palmitic g/kg 7.62
C17:0 Margaric g/kg 0.00
C18:0 Stearic g/kg 1.49
C20:0 Arachidic g/kg 0.10
C22:0 Behenic g/kg 0.03
C24:0 Lignoceric g/kg 0.00
MONO-UNSATURATED
C16:1w7 Palmitoleic g/kg 0.07
C17:1w8 Heptadecenoic g/kg 0.00
C18:1w9 Oleic g/kg 12.57
C20:1w9 Gadoleic g/kg 0.17
C22:1w9 Erucic g/kg 0.01
POLYUNSATURATED
C18:2w6 Linoleic g/kg 31.29
C18:3w3 Linolenic g/kg 2.75
C18:4w3 Octadecatetraenoic g/kg 0.00
C20:2w6 Eicosadienoic g/kg 0.00
C20:3w6 Dihomo-gamma-linolenic g/kg 0.00
C20:4w6 Arachidonic g/kg 0.00
C20:5w3 Eicosapentanoic g/kg 0.00
C22:5w3 Clupanodonic g/kg 0.00
C22:6w3 Docosahexaenoic g/kg 0.00
Edited by FIRE SHRIMP - October 29 2009 at 8:23am
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Dion Richins
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 9:35am |
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Wow that is a lot of crap in that. Copper being a fairly large contributer.
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thefu
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 9:41am |
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I guess it would matter how much was added, right. If one gram were added, then that would contain 15 micrograms of copper. What is the tolerable amount of copper in a reef tank. I ask because many "reef safe" additives have some level of copper in them as does the natural ocean. So, just because something has copper does not by itself make it bad unless the concentration is too high, right?
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Dion Richins
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 10:05am |
Depends on how many doses you do. Remember copper binds to the rock and sand. It does not precipitate or just go away. Also there is so much stuff in the ingredients that who knows what adverse effect might occur over its use.
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thefu
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 10:20am |
I did not know that about the binding Dion, thats good to know. Does that mean that there is a negative accumulative effect of copper even from reef-safe additives?
I would like our SeaChem sponsor expert maybe to weigh in here because I do believe some of their reef safe products like AquaVitro Fuel contain copper. Their numbers say one microgram per gram of additive. That is about 1/15th the amount in this product. But, if I dose 28ml for my 120g system (what they recommend), that is ~28g which is 28 micrograms of copper. If it is accumulative, then with two doses of fuel a week for a year that would mean I have accumulated about 3mg of copper in my tank. I would have to dose a lot of this medication to get to that amount. And, what I am also asking is if it is accumulative, then at what level should we care? Is 3mg a year accumulation a lot in 120g tank? I have no idea. Could this also be some of the "old tank syndrome issue", that is the accumulation of certain elements in the rock and sand like copper?
I know there is a lot of crap in this medication and I am not defending its use at all. I just don't know if the copper is a red herring (a funny application of that term in this context) or not.
Overall I am really interested in this accumulation issue related to tank additives.
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jfinch
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:29pm |
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First off, what Eric posted was the composition of a medicated rat food, not Fenbendazole alone. It could be that the copper included in that analysis is from the food portion of the product and not the medication portion.
Second, 15 ppm Cu is not that high even in a food. Fish foods that we all add every day vary from ~5-30 ppm Cu.
Third, it's very difficult to tell exactly how copper is going to behave in seawater. It takes many different forms depending on pH, temp and probably salinity. Almost all the Cu in the ocean is complexed with naturally occuring organic chemicals (chelates) extruded by algaes. The toxicicity of copper is decreased greatly when it's chelated. The ocean only has about 1 ppb Cu but most salt mixes are closer to 10 ppb and appear to be safe.
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thefu
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:32pm |
Jon, what is your feeling on the idea of accumulation in rock and sand over time?
Should we be concerned about this even with low-dose copper reef-safe additives?
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jfinch
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:39pm |
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As Dion mentions, copper will definately accumulate in CaCO3 structures... sand, rock, etc and can then slowly leach back out over time. Luckily copper is often bound by organics which allow it to be removed by skimming. Also, macro algae will uptake copper. My personal opinion is that as long as you don't ever let the bulk water see high copper concentrations and you either skim or grow macro or both then you're likely to be ok. But it only takes one high dose of copper (usually via a medication and not "food") to push lots of copper into the sand and rock. When that happens there's nothing left to do other then keep only fish or get rid of the sand and rock.
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thefu
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:48pm |
That makes a ton of sense. Thanks for that info. Basically if you do not mega dose the copper to a point where more will be in the water at any one time than can be uptaken by organisms or skimmed off. That is the point at which it will be absorbed into the rock, sand, etc.
Thanks again Jon!
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:53pm |
Glad you have found that this is the place to find the best answers to your questions. Well, to answer the topic question, "No, you have not killed your tank." 
Many tanks don't do so well with anemones so it may not even be the medication.
FYI, Activated Carbon (AC) will not help much at this point. It mostly removes organic molecules, not free metals and other weird chemicals.
I recommend using a product that should remove the traces of metals and bad chemicals and then we can look at the way the tank is set up and help you with anything that may encourage anemones.
There are two products that I know of that can remove copper and traces of medications. I recommend this one:
The other product is called Chemi Pure.
One or both of these may be available in the LFS's
Use one of these products to filter the tank water for at least 2 weeks. The reason for running it two weeks is because, as Dion indicated, the chemicals that bind up to other chemicals in the tank (in places like the LR, LS and LW) will be released from their bonds slowly and only as the water is stripped of the free floating bad chemicals. Jon posted as I was writing. He can explain it better, but he may not know how effective those products are at removing bad chemicals. Gosh, I didn't know until just earlier this year when I had a similar problem with unknown LR from an abandoned aquarium. There was so much copper or something bound up in the substrate that algae wouldn't even grow, so using lovely macroalgae to clear up the problem was not an option. 
Now if you don't mind, let us see a pic of the tank and tell us how you set it up. We should be able to help lead you to an anemone friendly environment.
Edited by Mark Peterson - October 29 2009 at 1:02pm
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 1:24pm |
I run Seachem's Cuprisorb every now and then... just to make sure I don't have any copper problems. I believe (can't remember now) that it does remove chelated copper forms.
Althougt I'll add again... you can't beat a water change.
Adam
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jeepnmatt
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 2:39am |
WOW, thank you all for the information! Okay, I guess I should have added some more information from the beginning. My tank is 75g with about 25 gallons in the sump. I have about 70 lbs of live rock in the display tank, and another few pounds in the sump. I run a protein skimmer 24 hours a day and also have cheato growing in the sump. As I have talked to the LFS they thought copper too (as did Mark Petersen...we talked on the phone a while back) so I had it tested. Sure enough I had copper in the tank. So I bought a product at the LFS they recommended called Cupri-sorb. I have just left it in there in the sump indeffinately, as the store told me it would take out any hard metals and not hurt to leave it in there in case more metals were released. Keep in mind I didn't know this panacur had copper in it, again...my life motto...live and learn. Anyway, about my water perameters...
My Ph is at 8.3 consistantly.
My temp starts at 77 or so in the AM, ends at about 80 at night when the lights go off.
My calcium is right about 420 consistantly.
My ammonia is 0.
My nitrite and nitrate both at 0.
Oh, someone asked about lights. I have 2 150 watt metal halides (bulbs 4 mos old) as well as two 48" T5 HO's mounted in the canopy. I will work on getting some pictures here, but you can see them on other posts I have posted. Someone also asked about the water, I only use RO water purchased from the LFS. I am pumping about 600 or so gallons per hour I'd say. I pump it up as fast as the built in overflow can drain it, any more and the display tank will overflow. Also I have a Korelia 3 going in there 24/7, so I think I have enough circulation/water flow.
On how much I dosed my poor tank. The recommended dose was 1/8th a teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. And 3 total doses, so I did this three times, once every other day for a total of 3 doses. You guys have been awesome. Thanks sooo much, maybe there is hope for my tank! I soooo want a reef tank, just hope this can still happen!
Edited by jeepnmatt - October 30 2009 at 3:26am
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Thanks for your help!
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CapnMorgan
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 5:06am |
The cupri-sorb should take care of your problem. If not you should just be able to cure some new LR (or buy it from an established tank) and swap it out with the old before you put much of a bio load in your tank. Best of luck with your tank!
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Steve My Old 180G Mixed ReefCurrently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 7:48am |
You have left the Cuprisorb in for how long  These products can only absorb a set amount of metals and chemicals. They must be replaced to continue doing the job. How long has that cuprisorb been in the system and please describe how the water is running past and through it
Please be aware also that each product that advertises that it will clean unwanted chemicals out of Reef Aquarium water is going to do a different job. For example, I have found that a product as simple as Garlic Oil used to prevent Ich can have varied results. One brand or form of Garlic will work fabulously in one tank and horribly in another and then the one that was horrible works well in another tank. It's like Jon said and it's not just dependent on the testable water parameters. There are so many things going on in reef habitats that one tank that is doing well can be completely different from another that is doing well.
That difference between tanks is why I said that anemones don't do well in some tanks. You told us that "anemones and the like" die within hours. What do you mean by "and the like"? What coral have you tried
** At this point you have already been doing massive water changes and that has not worked so my advice at this point is to stop doing water changes. Water changes, especially massive ones, can actually be stressful on tank life, including bacteria.
** At this point we have not totally explored all the avenues for resolving the problem so my advice is not to trouble yourself or disturb the tank by replacing LR.
** At this point you have learned that the "Doctor" Veterinarians don't have a clue about Reef Aquariums. I assume you were not aware of the value of the advice on this MB when you treated for Bristleworms. I also assume you have since seen our advice about Bristleworms and how simple it is to catch them. Have you seen this info
** Please don't feel bad about all this. I can tell you a hundred instances where I did something similar. But we learn and do better. If you stick with this, I believe together we can resolve the issue. 
Edited by Mark Peterson - October 30 2009 at 7:58am
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Jeffs_little_ocean
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 9:10am |
Are brissle worms a bad thing? I always thought they were good scavengers and good for a tank? Yes, they are'nt the most attractive creature, but i never see them durring the day.
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Dion Richins
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 9:18am |
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Cause some fish eat them!
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jeepnmatt
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 2:47pm |
Mark,
Thanks once again for your advise. Yeah, I know the Cupri-sorb can only "capture" so much until it is "worn out". The package said it will turn color from the natural sandy color it starts out at to a dark color. That has not happened as of yet, so I had just left it. It has been in there maybe 2 months. I have two of them in the sump right next to the filter, so all water going to the pump is in contact with them.
As far as "and the like" creatures. Anything I have tried asside from fish dies. I have tried a frag of zoas, anemone's, Xenia tree, all of which die very fast. I put them in and it seems as if they are being tossed in acid....they fold over, deflate, or shrivel up within 5-6 hours, and never really come back. I do acclimate anything I put in the tank, slowly adding water to their current water over a couple hours then add them to the tank. I have done some water changes thinking that maybe as this stuff discipates out of my rock, slowly increasing the amount in my water, that I could reduce the amt in the water through water changes. I was hoping I would slowly just take it all out through water changes. I dunno....I'm just grasping at straws at this point.
Also, yes I have learned that bristle worms are actually a good thing in your tank, again....live and learn. You know, its a frustrating thing, one person tells ya no they are bad, get rid of them, one says they are beneficial keep them. Even one LFS told me they were bad, so I did what I thought was best. I will always consult here first from now on and trust what you guys say.
I have learned to trust this site and you guys far more than any doctor. Unfortunately, I didn't find y'all until I had made some big mistakes. Thanks for your info!
Edited by jeepnmatt - October 30 2009 at 2:52pm
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Thanks for your help!
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