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TestKits-ease vs accuracy

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Jeffs_little_ocean View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 12 2010 at 9:00am
So what are the best test kits? Now that Im experimenting with bacteria dosing, I have been testing my Alk, Cal, and Mg levels daily and its such a pain! I have salifert kits and to be quite honest, I dont really like them. Its very time consuming and then there is always that question of when exactly has the color offically changed? It seems like there is about a 4-5 drop range from when the color starts to change to when is has definatly changed, which i think is a pretty huge range. So my question is, what test kits do you all use, and how accurate do you think they are, and most importantly, how hard is it to get your results?

Edited by Jeffs_little_ocean - November 12 2010 at 10:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 10:49am
I use Salifert for Alk and Ca but as soon as they are gone, I am switching to all Elos test kits.

I have read from a TON of people that Elos are way better than the Salifert kits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 10:51am
You could try those Hanna Instrument test kit more accurate, or go all of the way and purchase the electronic Test that will show you right on the spot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 12:08pm
The Hanna Phosphate meter works great. The Alkalinity meter is a total bust thus far and not worth the money. It is under reading for everyone that owns one.

There is a nice thread about it over on RC.
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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 5:06pm
You could save yourself half the work by testing every other day. One days difference in those three levels is no big deal.
Really. Smile
Consider two facts:
1 - The wide range of those levels that a reef can handle and
2 - The amount of increase of those components that a reef can handle.

In fact why not just take it all a lot slower and only test weekly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

You could save yourself half the work by testing every other day. One days difference in those three levels is no big deal.
Really. Smile
Consider two facts:
1 - The wide range of those levels that a reef can handle and
2 - The amount of increase of those components that a reef can handle.

In fact why not just take it all a lot slower and only test weekly?
Because my tank is going through alot of changes right now as it transitions to a probiotic system and I dont want to kill anything. Hopefully as things level out after running this way for awhile, I wont have to test nearly as much. But as for now, I just want to be safe.
Thanks for the input Ryan, My Ca kit is almost gone, so I think I will try the Elos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 9:11am
When a tanks filtration system becomes that time consuming I lose interest.
Isn't there an easier way?
Seems to me that this type of filtration system is too sensitive to leave any time for enjoyment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

When a tanks filtration system becomes that time consuming I lose interest.
Isn't there an easier way?
Seems to me that this type of filtration system is too sensitive to leave any time for enjoyment.


Did you mean to ask "Is there a lazier way?"

Sure there is a lazier way to do things in this hobby. For the first little bit there is some time involved with a bacterial driven system. Corals have to adjust and therefore they don't uptake as much Alk and Ca.

I test weekly right now and will go bi weekly here pretty soon.

I do think testing everyday or every other is excessive for any system but if that is what Jeff wants to do, then let him. I would rather see a hobbyist take time with their tank then one that neglects it and kills animals.

Mark, I think you have an issue with those of us that don't run YOUR system. I am sorry I don't like the sun beating on my tank, that I HATE the look of algae, and that I really do love my skimmer. I'm sorry that I won't accept the status quo. I want my tank to look good and in my eyes I haven't found another system that delivers results like this system can.

I have tried multiple systems. Sun beating on my tank and a refugium to a bacterial driven system. All the sun did was cause hair algae all over my tank and the refugium was a pain in the butt to clean out every other week. Not to mention scraping the glass every day.

Let those of us that want to try new things and get better results, be. If my tank crashes because of this type of system, you can laugh and tell me "told you so" all you want at that point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobC63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 12:17pm
Back on topic Wink
 
If you are planning on testing that frequently, you might want to consider an API 'master' kit for that purpose.
 
My thinking is that frequent testing is going to burn through test kits quickly and cost alot of $$$ if each individual test kit is $25 or more. 
 
You can get the API Reef 'master' (which has Alk, Ca, NO3 and PO4) for around $25 total.
 
Maybe use that for the daily tests, and save the Elos / Hanna kits for like a once a week "verification" tests, so you don't run through a bunch of pricier kits every month.
 
You will lose a little accuracy with the API kit - bit not too much.
 
And the API kits are very user-friendly with easy to see results.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 1:21pm
Thanks Bob, that's good advise and youre right, Elos kits arent cheap. I agree with you guys that daily testing is excessive. And trust me, no one is lazier then me when it comes to that, Im just seeing alot of changes going on in my tank right now, and it gives me peace of mind to know that at least he essential levels stay in range. And mark im not sure if there is an easier way, but ive done it your way for a long time, and all I can say is that the eighties are over and its time to try something new LOL Anyway, I looked at Elos test kit and it looks like the Ca is pretty similar to salifert as far as the PITA factor. 2 liquid and a 1 powder reagent, and a drip to get your result. Man, I really dont like that. Is the final result you should go with when you see it start to change color, or when it has definatly changed color?

Edited by Jeffs_little_ocean - November 13 2010 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badfinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 1:54pm
What kind of changes are you seeing?
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I've used Salifert and Elos and I can say they're both about the same (would definitely not say that Elos are "way better").  I've found Salifert to be the most consistent and reliable and that Elos is not worth the extra price (their Phosphate is almost $50!!  Plus, look at their reviews on Marine Depot, not that great).  It's more about an "End Point" than a color change with Salifert.  To me, there is not a 4 - 5 drop difference.  I just go drop by drop as I start to see a color change.  I look at the level with each drop and once there is no more change, I go with the level I mentally noted just before that drop.  I can do all Salifert tests very quickly (except for Strontium).  They are working well for me.  Plus, Salifert are much more widely available at LFS, etc. and I'm not forced to order them online and pay for shipping on top.
 
I've found Seachem test kits to be poor.  I originally used their Ca and Mag kits which are both complex and expensive.  The Ca was registering very high and the Mag is time consuming and uses little cotton balls.  I will never use them again.
 
Since I've switched to a probiotic system, I'm basically back to weekly testing after a 6 - 7 week transition period.  The adjustment of corals, including coraline algae, to the probiotics reduces their need for ALK and Ca during this time.  But now the ALK and Ca requirements are back to where they were when I had a refugium system, so it's not any more time consuming than before.  It's actually less time consuming because I clean the glass about 1/3 as much as before and my toothbrushes ONLY get used to clean my skimmer cup as opposed too before when I also used them to clean powerheads, overflows, frag racks, etc.  Only coraline on those things now! 


Edited by jcom - November 13 2010 at 9:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Jeffs_little_ocean Jeffs_little_ocean wrote:

And mark im not sure if there is an easier way, but ive done it your way for a long time, and all I can say is that the eighties are over and its time to try something new LOL
LOLI'm happy you are trying this new method. In fact I'm a little jealous. You don't know me very well and I have been essentially out of the hobby since Feb 07 when I stopped coral farming, sold all my stuff, got married and moved to St. George. Yeah, my wife started seeing how cool it was and we had some ordinary tanks, but for several reasons I have not been able to do the hobby like I wanted. Believe me, if I was not on this "hiatus", I would be the one telling you about my experience with the ULNS/carbon dosing high bacterial system. I wasn't dubbed the "brave mountain pioneer" for nothing.

I also know the history of this hobby. There are so many new methods that have come and gone, and come again - and gone again. It's dizzying. It just seems to me right now, looking in from the outside, that this system is a lot of work, and for what? What can it do that we can't already do with a less time consuming setup? Ryan claims that his experiences with other methods were all dismal. I understand that, but for me, I had excellent results. As I'm thinking about it right now, in all honesty, maybe I'm really sad that I cannot show you the results of my tanks in the sun, etc., and that I am missing out on the opportunity to try this new system. Cry

Oh and about your question below, it's the latter.Smile
Originally posted by Jeffs_little_ocean Jeffs_little_ocean wrote:

Is the final result you should go with when you see it start to change color, or when it has definatly changed color?


Edited by Mark Peterson - November 13 2010 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 10:17pm
Mark,
I feel for you.  I wish I had more time on my hands to divote to this hobby as well.
The titration tests need a color card that shows you when it has truley changed color so we know when to stop dripping IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 10:39pm
I've tested the water of hundreds of tanks. The color is a slightly different hue for some tanks. I think they hope that  we will do enough tests that we figure it out for ourself. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 11:02pm
[QUOTE=Mark Peterson] I have been essentially out of the hobby since Feb 07 when I stopped coral farming, sold all my stuff, got married and moved to St. George. 
 
Mark why exactly is this? You are always talking about your unfortunate circumstances, or that the finances dont allow it, but I think you could easily have a tank. I see cheap tanks for sale on ksl all the time. Even occasionally free ones. Utah sand and rock is free.  You dont like skimmers and love using the sun for light. Perfect, the sun is free! Youre a smart guy probably more passionate about saltwater than anyone Ive ever met. I just think you should have a tank, even if its a small one with like 2 chromis, a hermit crab or 2, and an aiptaisa anemome named Alvin that you spot feed little peices of top ramen  to. LOL Seriously though, I just dont get it?


Edited by Jeffs_little_ocean - November 14 2010 at 9:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2010 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

When a tanks filtration system becomes that time consuming I lose interest.
Isn't there an easier way?
Seems to me that this type of filtration system is too sensitive to leave any time for enjoyment.


Mark, for someone who is so dedicated to the hobby I don't understand why spending a little extra time to try something new would make you loose interest.  Being closed-minded never helps us learn anything.  Alot of my enjoyment and interest in the hobby comes from learning new things and messing around with my tank trying to improve things.  Just because someone doesn't have a display of Utah rock, full of macro algae in direct sunlight, and pc lighting, does not mean they are doing it wrong.

Anyways.. back on topic.  I have been using the API test kits because they are cheap, easy to use,  and have been accurate for me. (I have compared the alk and calcium to some salifert kits on more than one occasion and they have been right on) I have heard good things about the elos kits as well and will probably give them a try.


Edited by kellerexpress - November 14 2010 at 1:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2010 at 2:11am
Testing daily seems alot of hassle and probably would be more expensive in the long run instead of buy electronic tests. I usually test once a month, i know my crappy habits, i let my system tell me whats going on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2010 at 10:25am
Thanks guys. Here is the current situation. Thanks to my daughter, for the past 6 months we have a small reef tank in the sun. It has Utah and Hawaiian rock and sand, donated coral and an RBTA(thanks Danh), but no fish. Thanks to Dion, I have one of my previous 40 gal shallow acrylic frag tanks sitting here waiting to be set up and thanks to my brother, there's a 75 gal sitting in storage. We are currently looking for a new place to live. One with south/east facing large windows where coral farming could start providing an income. I have a dream of a large thriving coral farming business right here in the valley. Smile

Back on topic, all the good test kits are going to use the titration process which means chemicals and droppers. There's just no other good way right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote downhill_biker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2010 at 11:30am
To answer the OP. After the MWRF I would probably keep my eyes out for the next couple months for the new Red Sea Kits. They have a nifty vile holder and dosing syringe built into one. It is fantastic. It also allows you to compare your test water to a control water sample and match them to eachother...so no matter what color your water is...clear, yellow, brown, blue, purple...that slight tint in your tank water will be factored into your final reading. The kits are well priced too. Should be around $40 for a ca, alk, mag kit combo. I was given an alk kit at the MWRF to try out before they release. I can let you know how it works.
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