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Ich!!!! Help

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icenine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2013 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

[QUOTE=Dan9554880]  
Speaking of the UV Sterilizer it's funny now that I look back on it, but 10 years ago I was very vocal and serious in my disbelief that they could have any effect on Ich. Such a small amount of water runs through them, I would argue, they cannot do any good. How wrong I was.

No Mark, actually I believe you were right. I've never used a UV fresh or salt. I'll never forget the director of life support at the Shedd in Chicago saying they didn't use them because: 

  • The vast majority of pathogens are not free-swimming and cling to objects in the aquarium. They would not be killed by the UV anyway.
  • The manufacturer specs don'tt say much because it
    doesn't state in which circumstances this was tested. The other references
    don't say much either. It seems all labwork or field work, if it already is
    related to this specific subject: controlling pathogens with UV in aquarium
    or pond. While you can kill organisms with UV, it practically doesn't work
    in aquaria or ponds besides the point that you will need an impractical slow
    flowrate.
Also:

Edwig Boeykens, the well known Flemish authority on koi, filtration and
ponds wrote an article about this on the Pond Library which unfortunately
isn't translated yet (but will be soon). He's a writer, ombudsman and editor
in chief of the Belgian koi magazine. I don't think his article about UV
filtration is considered controversial by anyone here. After all I am not
aware of any European company that claims its UV unit will also kill
pathogens.
After everything has been said and done, in practise, on ponds and aquaria,
UV does not make any significant difference on the pathogenic organisms.

Bob mentioned costia is free swimming. This is actually a half truth. If
costia can't find a host within 2 hours it dies. If it finds a healthy host
the fish is not affected, and the parasite remains dormant on the fish.

We need to understand pathology for this subject. There are a few simple
rules:

- Every healthy fish /already/ harbors several types of (microscopic)
pathogens

- Pathogens are normally /not/ the primary cause for the disease
- A fish does not get sick because it harbors pathogens

Diseases are caused primarily by:
- improper living conditions
- stress

In a simple way, you could think of it as fruit in a bowl. If a banana goes
bad suddenly it'll attract a swarm of fruitflies.

See why a UV doesn't work for killing pathogens?



Edited by icenine - May 12 2013 at 8:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:06pm
Aloha everyone,

Isn't this forum awesome! So much diversity. Thumbs Up
Here is my new creed that I have been trying to live ever since returning to Utah:
- to try everything I can and share what works.
- to be happy with what works for others, even though it may not work for me.
- to find joy in every hobbyists success and achievement.

Mahalo,
Mark Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote builderofdreams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 9:17am
With all that being said is there a reason to even use a UV?

Edited by builderofdreams - May 14 2013 at 11:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 9:58pm
Aloha,

Is there any reason to use UV?
Yes definitely! As I tried to say above, that I was wrong when I used to say that UV could not possibly do anything to control Ich. Since that time, over 10 years ago, I have seen too many tanks where UV was the thing that stopped Ich. It hasn't always worked but it works about 75% of the time. Sometimes, after other things had been tried and failed, UV did the trick. So if you are ready to move that Moorish Idol over to your front room tank where the UV is running, especially if you tried a different Garlic Oil product with no success (because the MI isn't eating) then I say go for it. Thumbs Up

Is there any reason to use Ozone?
Another thing that has helped control Ich is Ozone(O3) run through the skimmer. Many hobbyists will say that O3 should never be used without an ORP controller. O3 can be very effectively run without any control other than the dial on the unit. Start with a low output setting and increase as necessary after 3 days at each setting.
With the O3 output tube in your mouth you should be able to taste the bitterness. If no bitterness, turn the dial to increase the output. If O3 is smelled outside the stand (that after a thunderstorm smell), the O3 is set too high.
Too much O3 will make the coral appear and act as though they were sunburned or as though the lights had been on 24 hrs/day for a week. It's a little more difficult to see the effect on fish. They usually look fine until they die.

Mahalo for reading,
Mark Hug


Edited by Mark Peterson - May 14 2013 at 10:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote builderofdreams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 10:32pm
Actually I have uv's on both tanks.
Might be hard to believe but after dosing the garlic in the others Food there is literally no sign on my idol at all. You would never know it's the same fish. I know you took pictures of him would cool if You would post And I will post a after picture.
Oh by the way I new they were good for ich. The previuos post mentioned not helpful for much else. Correct?

Edited by builderofdreams - May 14 2013 at 10:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 11:31pm
Dont be surprised if it comes back in a week or so... It may have just fallen off and is in the water waiting to infect the rest of your fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote builderofdreams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2013 at 9:17am
^ agreed. By no means was I trying to implie that it was 100% gone.
Call me a " irresponsible reefer" but I have No way to QT a fish this size. The other two fish are seasoned veterans. Both had ick about a year ago And pulled through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2013 at 7:20pm
Mark you are one of the most genuinely kind and PATIENT men I've ever met.. *hats off to you*

I did want to add one note regarding this common cure for ICH, that Garlic works best as one part of a few steps.  This has cured ICH in 5 of my early tanks (3 FW & 2 SW Tanks)) back before they were stable enough that it never came back.  This formula will knock it out in 1-2 weeks depending on the infestation :

For Both Freshwater and Salt Water Steps
  1. Garlic Oil soaked food- Doesn't kill the parasite, it just makes them jump off the fish (they don't like the taste)

  2. Raise the tank temperature- this helps kill free-floating parasites and young
    • In SW Reef, I don't go much higher than 84 degrees... it will take a week longer to kill but won't endanger your reef and other fish as much
    • In FW I've gone as high as 89 degrees and saw an incrementally faster resolution to the problem, but that tank had much larger fish, I wouldn't risk it with smaller fish

  3. Do More Water Changes than normal (clean substrate while you're at it)- This clears more of the free floating parasites and their young and also provides a cleaner tank so your fish are in better condition to fight the ICH.
    1. SW - I did about 20-25% twice/week
    2. FW - Shocking as it may seem... for bad outbreaks I've done as much as 25%/daily (FW outbreaks are much harder to cure because you don't have the benefit of cleaner shrimp to remove much of the parasites)
Other Salt Water steps

3. Fire Shrimp, Cleaner Shrimp, Peppermint Shrimp and Cleaner Wrasse... IMMEDIATELY -  These will rip the parasites off your fish that are killing them RIGHT NOW... so they can survive the week of treatment
    • NOTE: I recommend Fire Shrimp over standard cleaner shrimp, and peppermint, even though they are cheaper... (personally I would get all of the above when I have an outbreak)

      At the time I was going overkill with everything that was even suggested to help, so I bought: Cleaner Shrimps (2), Peppermint Shrimps (2), a coral Banded Shrimp, a handful of ghost shrimps, and a cleaner wrasse.

      Peppermint and Ghost Shrimps didn't do anything that I ever saw (mind you,  I was obsessing and watched them probably 4 hours/day).  Cleaner wrasse also helped occasionally, but wasn't really in the game it seemed.  I noticed the fish would LET the cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasse,  do the job when jumped upon, but they seemed to twitch and jerk when the shrimp cleaned them.. like it was hurting them; pulling too hard or ripping off chunks with the parasite.  The coral banded shrimp looked like he'd have eaten the whole fish if they had gotten hold of them.

      On the other hand, there was a cave where the Fire Shrimp lived that became known as the car-wash.  The fish would actively seek out the Fire Shrimp when they got infected.  They would back into his cave, and calmly hover while he went to work all over them... without a twitch or any sign of pain.  

      So this one is completely my experience, but fish seem to trust and enjoy the fire shrimp car wash more than the average ICH skin ripper LOL
Other FreshWater steps (for those interested - curing ICH in FW was much more difficult in my experience)

3.  TongueBelieve it or not... add Salt hehe - Not our average Salt Water salt, but little boxes in the FW aisle commonly referred to as Brackish Salt or Aquarium Salt

It's said to increase gill health, and increase the effectiveness of medication in FW tanks. whatever the reason, it was part of my regiment and it worked

4.  Rid-Ich or similar ICH medication - I've probably used them all, but none seemed very effective until combined with all of the steps above.  Then it finally knocked it out.  

Other Steps I've never tried and thus have no experience with:
  1. Adding an air bubbler (in SW and FW) - ICH attaches primarily in the gills... thus the focus on add Salt to FW to increase gill health

  2. Empty your tank and boil sterilize your substrate... there is a nut job in just about every forum somewhere isn't there? LOL

  3. Coppering your tanks -  think we've all heard the term, has this fish ever been in a coppered tank?!?

  4. Quarantining - Seems popular with most, but I've always been scared to take a dying fish, and adding more stress by chasing him around my tank for 1/2 hour to get him into a quarantine tank that doesn't have his favorite home cave or any familiar/safe surroundings.   Scratch that... tried it twice with my giant FW tank... both times they were dead by morning... I blamed the net-chase.

Here are some related articles (ok I admit just the first 10 items that came up when I googled how to cure ICH":
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php
http://ichfishick.com/How_to_cure_Ich.php (site dedicated to nothing else)
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html (very technobabble collection of scientific studies)

I did come across one article in my search that stated that garlic was unverified, but it was in similar "Macintosh rules, Windows is for losers" type of tone and lacked the professionalism expected from a true scientific study:  http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/

I found 3 other sites pointing to this link as proof that garlic is rubbish, but that was in 2 pages of links saying it works LOL
Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2013 at 7:26am
Mahalo Patrick.

Originally posted by builderofdreams builderofdreams wrote:

...Might be hard to believe but after dosing the garlic in the others Food there is literally no sign on my idol at all. You would never know it's the same fish. I know you took pictures of him would cool if You would post And I will post a after picture.
This was a larger picture that I have cropped and tried to enhance. Some may see the faint white dusting against the Idol's black bars. It looked horrible and was all over the Idol's body. Was it your Garlic Guard that did the job?

Edited by Mark Peterson - May 16 2013 at 7:28am
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