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growing sps without a skimmer.

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2010 at 8:24pm

Good insight.

I can tell you that 90% of the problems and crashes that people write about could have been avoided and even corrected, if they had obtained the right help. There is always a way to make it work, a way to avoid a problem and a way to recover a crashing tank.
 
It's very true that a Skimmer creates a nice safety margin against new hobbyist error, but a well set up system with good biological filtration can also completely handle hobbyist error. From my experience and perspective, the dilema is how to take a newer hobbyist that is naturally more prone to error and help them set up the maximum biological filtration. It's much easier and bullet proof to just tell that hobbyist to get a Skimmer.Approve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fishoutawater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2010 at 11:03pm
So what I get from this is that you don't have to have a skimmer, but there is absolutely no harm in it. It gives a little cushion for error/bad luck in a tank if/when something goes awry. Sps can be much more demanding of stable parameters in water chemistry, can be very expensive, and need much higher flow than other corals. Higher flow means more pumps, wavemakers, etc,= more money. Why would you not want to have one? You can always take it off line later and see how your system reacts, and sell it if it's truly not needed. And you can pick up a decent one for around $100 used. If/when I get all the little bugs worked out of my system, that is when I would think about trying it without a skimmer. I read a book once and on the topic of skimmers it said something along the lines of "if you don't think you need a skimmer, try drinking the stuff it pulls out of your tank"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MadReefer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:43am
I want a bigger skimmer. I just don't have the money, also I think other things are more important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 2:11am
I find it interesting that most everyone touts the benefit of going slow and allowing your tank to cycle for 4 to 8 weeks and then slap on a great big skimmer and stock the he** out of your tank. Is it any wonder that so many tanks have problems between 4 months and 1 year.
 
I prefer Mark's more natural slow and steady building of the reef tank and relying on a balance of the natural filtration of Live Rock, Algae, and Sand, coupled with sunlight. I know skimming is a natural process just like the foam from waves at the beach but when I was at the Caribbean I didn't see any of that dirty foam that we see in California. It seems to me that there is a lot more natural processes going on in a real reef. Sure our captive systems don't have the massive volume of water and there are other issues we have to deal with that differ from the wild reefs but for those willing to take a slower approach and learn about naturally balancing an aquarium the results can be very rewarding.
 
I really don't have anything against skimmers and if they get you the results your looking for then great. As for new hobbyists I guess if the goal is to have that showcase reef ASAP then you better not leave out the skimmer. If the goal is to learn systematically about the interactions in a reef tank and you're willing to go a little slower and build the reef as your experience grows then perhaps a skimmer isn't such a necessary part of a first reef. Certainly it would be easier to graduate up to a skimmer when you find natural methods aren't allowing you to meet your goals but stepping down without reducing the bio-load on the tank would spell disaster.
 
At the end of March my tank will be 1 year old. While it's not densely packed with SPS and Tons of fish I am happy with the way it's progressing and what I have learned over the past year. My display is only a 28 Gallon Nano but I think it is a well balanced mixed reef. When it hits the year mark I want to do a series of pics showing how it has changed over the year from bare and sterile to being dominated by softies and leather then the addition of more LPS and now less of the softies and more SPS. While there are many nano's more beautiful than mine I am thrilled because before starting my reef tank last year I didn't think my lifestyle, business and family commitments would allow me to have  a reef tank. I set out to see if I could create a reef that would be stable enough for me to leave it for 3 to 10 days while I travel and still capture the wonder and amazement of guests when they come to visit. I hope to do a bigger tank some day but for now my 2 small tanks and frag system are really about all I can handle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fishoutawater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 8:54am
Definitely not advocating stocking the he** out of a tank, I only have 5 fish, all under 3" in my 40. Also well over 50# live rock, 4" sandbed and a reverse lit fuge with macro. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want one, especially on larger systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:06am
Perhaps in a larger system you might need a skimmer. The largest tank I have had experience with is a 55 Gallon but it seems to me that the same principles should hold true no matter the water volume. In my tanks simplicity is extremely important to me because the more complexity I add the more chance of failure while I am away. Since I travel weekly and sometimes for up to 10 days the less that can go wrong the better. I was willing to be content with softies and LPS just to have a reef tank but I am excited to find out that the way I have set up my tank it is both simple and capable of supporting some SPS. I stay away from some of the more difficult LPS simply because I can't be there to give them the care they would require and I am sure there are SPS I won't be able to keep for the same reason.
 
It all comes down to the simple truth that there are many ways to set up and maintain a reef tank. Each of us have to consider not only what we want out of our reefs but also the time we have to dedicate to them and the available resources. Up to this point I haven't set up a sump or fuge either, both of which are excellent systems on a reef tank but I don't want to risk a flood happening when I am away so to minimize that risk all my tanks are self contained. I don't think everyone should go sumpless or fugeless any more than I think everyone should go skimmerless, but I am finding that you can enjoy the hobby without any of these systems and have a nice looking reef in the process.
 
I hope this explains where I am coming from. If I had different goals for my tank I would most likely incorporate a skimmer, sump and fuge into the design.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thefu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:12am
Actually I think there is a good relation to biomass to natural. Unfortunately the look many are seeking ( right or wrong) puts it right on the edge sometimes.

And burt, if you want to have more SPS and be away from the tank, the skimmer IS part of the fail safe. If one of the larger soft corals happens to die off it can start off a real bad chain reaction that the carbon and natural filtration cannot keep up with but a skimmer might just keep your tank from crashing while you are away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:24am
I completely agree. The goals of hobbyist have to dictate what equipment is used and many wouldn't want a reef with my combination of fish and coral and simplicity. Who knows at some point I may want to incorporate a skimmer especially if I ever get that large show tank I dream about, but for now less is more to me.
 
Actually I did put a skimmer on my system back in May or June. Unfortunately though it was supposedly designed for my Nano I couldn't raise the lid without taking the skimmer apart so I sent it back. It was a EruoReef Nano skimmer with the mesh wheel and supposed to pull tons of stuff out of the water. I used it for about a week and it didn't seem to do much for me. Maybe it needed longer to break in but I haven't missed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:45am
Originally posted by fishoutawater fishoutawater wrote:

...I just don't understand...
 
You hit it on the head. It has to do with "understanding". It's about the knowledge. Please don't think I am saying that using a skimmer is a poor choice, because it really is a good choice. Skimmers are wonderful. It's amazing how much crud a good skimmer removes. But please understand, that crud is food. One organisms waste is anothers food. If left in the tank that food will allow something in the tank to grow that would not have grown so well without it.
 
For myself personally, with what I know and the experience I have had setting up naturally filtered reef systems, a skimmer is not wanted. I have grown pretty much all species of coral of several varieties and often rescue dieing coral and fish, all without a skimmer or other related equipment.Smile
 
I wrote something about my experience many years ago in our Sea Star Newsletter. It's titled "RDP Filtration." Here it is if anyone is interested: http://www.utahreefs.com/SeaStar/wmasSeaStar02Feb.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dew2loud1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:50pm
My biggest problem with "natural systems" is that people often only feed their fish every couple days or once a week or even less.  I've seen some ridiculously emaciated fish in these systems where people are afraid to feed b/c of nitrates.
If you don't want to feed your fish don't get them, just keep corals.
It's directly akin to not feeding your dog because you don't want to pick up the waste.

Protein skimmers allow for more than just a cushion, IMO, they allow you to responsibly keep a reef and its inhabitants.

Skilled hobbyists can keep a completely natural system with well fed fish, but they know when the system starts to suffer.  Beginning hobbyists normally don't have this luxury and overstock their tank thinking they can get away with it.  A mature system with only a few fish can most likely sustain itself with little additional feeding but very very few of us have these types of systems.

For tanks under 55 gallons i really think its 100% feasible to get away without a skimmer, and perform water changes, but with my bioload there is no way i could personally do it because i have huge fish and feed them well.  I enjoy seeing them thrive not just live in a glass box.  In the ocean a tang has thousands of square meters for his home range, i'm pretty sure as hobbyists we owe him a sheet of nori a day......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 2:13pm
I will agree that a new hobbyist who isn't willing to do the research and learn about his system should have a Skimmer, Sump, Fuge and anything else that will give the livestock a fighting chance. Personally I would rather a new hobbyist that isn't willing to do the research and learn about his system find another hobby but that's another topic. Such a person is likely to have a tank disaster no matter how much safety is built into the tank.
 
I agree also that you need to feed the fish and corals enough for them to thrive, but that doesn't mean that a carefully planned tank cannot handle the bio-load without protein skimming. It does mean that the amount of livestock has to be limited to the amount the system can comfortably handle leaving a cushion for problems. It would be irresponsible to push any system to the edge of its capabilities.
 
I feed my fish daily and they have nice round bellies. I also include some fine particle food that corals and other critters in the tank can take advantage of. Additionally I target feed the corals weekly unless I am away over a week. I only do a small water change once a month and Nitrates are always register at 0 to just a trace. If nutrients were out of control or heading south I would certainly be looking for a solution other than starving the fish.
 
I consider myself a new hobbyist at just under a year in, and a responsible reef owner. I stock my tank slowly and watch how it responds to new additions before considering future additions. It really doesn't take that long to learn how the reef is reacting if you pay attention. I wouldn't recommend any system as being bullet proof for a new hobbyist as there are too many variables that can cause issues. At the same time I wouldn't discourage a new hobbyist who is willing to do the research and go slow growing their reef as their own knowledge increases from trying a natural reef system.


Edited by bfessler - January 18 2010 at 2:16pm
Burt

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 3:03pm
I agree.
I can think of a former hobbyist, Gahlen Fridley, starting out did a good amount of research and was frequently asking several of the WMAS seasoned hobbyists for their opinions, often by telephone. This gave him 3 or 4 different viewpoints on the same topic, providing him with the knowledge and insight to set up beautiful long lived tanks. Two more such hobbyists that immediately come to mind are Burt Fessler and Terrence/thefu.Clap
 
The key is to get correct information from several viewpoints and then use it. A hobbyist doing this may still occasionally make errors and have mishaps, but not the same as the silly person thinking they should be able to keep a Reef as if it were a Betta BowlLOL
 
One of the reasons I love this hobby is because of it's requirement to know something of biology, chemistry, oceanograhy, animal behavior, etc. etc.
I love Kyles statement above: In the ocean a Tang has thousands of square meters for his home range, i'm pretty sure as hobbyists we owe him a sheet of nori a day......Thumbs Up


Edited by Mark Peterson - January 18 2010 at 3:05pm
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