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Let's talk T5's

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Skulldozer View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 07 2015 at 8:23pm
I currently have a CadLights 50 cube. I'm running a 24" Coralife 4 bulb w/ lunar LED'S. After watching John Moss' presentation the other night I have a few questions?
I originally set up the bulbs in this order (all ATI bulbs) :
FRONT
Blue+
Coral+
Purple+
Blue+
BACK
But in an effort to hit the lower end of the blue spectrum I changed the bulbs to this:
FRONT
Blue+
Actinic
Purple+
Blue+
BACK
So I guess my questions are:
Is it possible to cover the spectrums needed for LPS/softies towards the bottom, SPS at the top with either of these light configurations?
Is it possible at all, with a 4 bulb t5 unit without supplementation?
What's the best 4 bulb combo for both coloration and growth?
Am I losing out on a critical spectrum by dropping the coral+ bulb?
Thanks in advance!
50 gallon Artisan II cube
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 8:27pm
How deep is the tank and how high are your lights mounted above the tank?
My ocean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skulldozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 8:29pm
Tank is 20" deep. Using the standard tank mounts/legs, I'd say about 4-5" above the water surface.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 9:48am
People have used T-5's with great results for years and years...especially with ATI bulbs. My engineering master's thesis was on LEDs, and I still use ATI T-5's on my grow-out tank (I use LEDs on my display and my QT).

The Purple+ bulb covers a lot that the Coral+ bulb does, so you probably found your first combination a bit on the whitish-red side (about 12-16,000K). Replacing the Coral+ with an Actinic probably shifted you too far over into the blue side (probably nearing 20,000K). I would stick with 3 Blue+ and 1 Purple+.

Normal aquariums are shallow enough that the reduction in the red portions of the spectrum by depth is negligible. The corals at the top of the tank receive nearly the same as the bottom, just at a lower intensity.

Long story short...you're fine. You may find that you need to bump up to a 6-bulb fixture if you want to keep more SPS later, but that's about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skulldozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 10:30am
ReefdUp, you're correct on both accounts. Neither combo bothers me visually. I guess I was just in search of the best combo for growth and color. I'll pick up another Blue+ bulb this week and try your suggestion. Thanks for the info!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 11:33am
The lower in the spectrum you go (toward 10,000K), the better growth you'll get. The higher you go (toward 20,000K), the better color you'll get. Most people shoot for around 14-16,000K for a good balance. If neither bothers you, you can save the money and just try a new combo when it's time for new bulbs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 3:46pm
+1 that most aquariums are too shallow for spectral reduction to be an issue. The light at the top is generally the same as the light at the bottom, albeit more intense.

I love ATI T5's. Great lighting decision. As Nikki said, tested and proven. So I won't even bring LEDs into the discussion.

I'm still a huge supporter of boosting the near-UV range, as it is almost as important to chlorophyll absorption as the red end of the spectrum. I think most lighting solutions are lacking in this important part of the spectrum. I don't have the scientific data to back that claim for now, although preliminary analysis has been positive.

By switching the Coral+ to Actinic you are sacrificing red spectrum for near-UV spectrum. Would this give you a noticeable difference in growth? I for one would be interested to find out. I'm going to throw out a hypothesis that you would actually get slightly better growth and coloration with the Actinic bulb. Here is why:

The ATI coral plus bulb's red peak is more in the amber spectrum ( ~620nm ) where the chlorophyll absorption peak is closer to 670nm. Chlorophyll is also very picky when it comes to the red spectrum it likes, it dives off quickly on either side of 670nm. So the 620nm peak in the coral plus, theoretically, is less useful than the large spectral range of near-UV that the actinic bulb provides.

If you look at the graphs below, you can see that the coral plus's amber peak misses the Chlorophyll-A absorption peak by quite a ways. Chlorophyll-B does have a peak in amber, but it's smaller in relation and Chlorophyll-B is much much less common in corals overall than Chlorophyll-A.

CHLOROPHYLL ABSORPTION


ATI CORAL PLUS GRAPH



ATI ACTINIC BLUE GRAPH



Obviously generalization is happening here, each coral has specific needs. Hypothesis is based off of Chlorophyll A and B alone, not even taking into consideration Carotenoids or Phycos. But at a glance it looks like the Actinic bulb actually provides more useful light than the Coral Plus. I don't think switching the bulb will create mind blowing differences, but it'd be fun to see if it did make a difference, negative or positive.

Just my two cents in follow up to my remarks and thoughts at the meeting.

I think your second array of bulbs looks totally kickass. 10/10 would run over my tanks. If you have acans I bet they'll love you to high heaven.


Edited by Pete Moss - March 09 2015 at 4:33pm
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
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Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 )
Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skulldozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 4:12pm
Awesome John! Thanks for taking the time to respond. This community is awesome. As for now, I'm going to keep the actinic bulb. I'm really liking the blue and the colors. I'll keep you updated on any growth or color changes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Skulldozer Skulldozer wrote:

Awesome John! Thanks for taking the time to respond. This community is awesome. As for now, I'm going to keep the actinic bulb. I'm really liking the blue and the colors. I'll keep you updated on any growth or color changes.


Awesome, take lots of pictures along the way! If it flops you can blame me hahahaha

Edited by Pete Moss - March 09 2015 at 4:14pm
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
What stores do I recommend?
Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 )
Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 5:16pm
Chlorophyll isn't the only concern. You're completely missing all the impact of zooxanthallae clades. If I can find time, I'll try to write another dissertation later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skulldozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 6:18pm
You guys know way more about this than I do! Let me know what you guys decide! Haha!
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Interesting, following.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 8:35pm
Sorry...my thesis in the real world (#2...glutton for punishment, I know) got in the way. This is more of an interesting topic though. :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 1:33am
Very interested to learn what Nikki knows! She's a total boss.

I thought the eight clades all primarily used Chlorophyll-A.

I know that there is a lot more to it than Chlorophyll-A, To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of energy during photosynthesis was provided by Chlorophyll-A either from sunlight or through carotenoids. Which is why C-A is targeted so heavily. I am very curious to find out what amber light helps out besides carotenoids.

I thought the symbiont ratios of the clades were still vastly unknown. If you have info on them I want it badly.

Quit being so responsible with your scholarly duties and come chat Nikki!

There is so much I don't know, new knowledge kicks ass.

Edited by Pete Moss - March 10 2015 at 2:07am
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
What stores do I recommend?
Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 )
Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 9:43am
In my opinion, which is not necessarily scientific, just listening to experts over the years and my own trial and error, the second combination(posted above and copied below) supports the best growth and color.

Blue+
Actinic 
Purple+
Blue+

Just FYI, the pics below are fascinating and very revealing to me. I found and scanned these from a Jacques Cousteau book many years ago when I used to pour over all the fish/aquarium books at the library(before the internet) Embarrassed

Aloha,
Mark  Hug








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 9:54am
Mark we have to stop agreeing on things. It's tripping me out man. We need to start another thread and argue over something. This feels wrong.


Edited by Pete Moss - March 11 2015 at 9:54am
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
What stores do I recommend?
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Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skulldozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 9:58am
Well, I'm starting day 4 with the actinic combo and I'm still getting full polyp extension and the colors have never looked better. Growth is obviously TBD, I guess time will tell?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 10:26am
Time will tell :)

It's really hard to compare growth honestly. Especially if changes are minor. If you do see a drastic change it will be very telling.
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
What stores do I recommend?
Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 )
Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

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