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hammerhead View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 06 2008 at 9:45am
I have been fighting an old problem now for about 6 months, and it is driving me crazy. I have been trying to add sps corals in my 110 with my softties. All my acros and millipora that I have put in are doing great with good growth, but everytime I put a montipoa of an kind in there it always dies off. At first it will look good and even grow some but it always dies off. What the heck am I doing wrong, because I really want a plating monti? My perameters are ph-8.2, nitrite-0, ammonia-0, nitrate-.6, calcium-490, alk-2.4 milli, salinity1.021. I have lots of water current I have 4-koralin powerheads on a wave maker. I have 2-250 watt metal halides with 8-96 watt anctics, and a ferugium in my sump. I would like to post pics someday but my camera suchs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 9:54am
a few questions that I can think of
, what frequency are you doing water changes,
are you using carbon, and how often,
 I wonder if you are having ph swings?
your salintiy seems a bit low.
then there is the the nitrate,
how often do you feed? and what?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaggydoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:01am
That is really odd that acros are ok but montis are not. Montis are ime some of the easiest to keep sps. If you are not running carbon I would probably recommend this. Maybe with all the softies (do you have lots of leathers?) there is some kind of toxin in your tank the montis are especially sensitive too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammerhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:06am
I do a 15 gallon water change once a month. I dont use carbon but I am going to as soon as I get my reactor. I have not noticed any ph swings in the last year. I know there is a little nitrate but that shouldnt be enough to kill the montis. I feed reef plus, zooplanckton, and dt's reef blend, for the corals. And I feed flake food and cube food everyday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:19am
I would suggest bumping up your salinity to 1.024.  Mine was low for quite awhile and they look much better now that I raised my salinity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:19am
I would try carbon as soon as possible, that should remove any of the possible toxins, (don't add too fast though) I am a big fan of kalk, it has done really well for me over the last year, if I remember correctly it should also help with the nitrates.

it works best as a top off for evaporation, I am adding about gallon to two a day. although you must drip it in, you cannot add it all at once.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Morrill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:20am
Leathers release a toxin which will kill sps..
WHAT KINDA GUM????... Give em 2 sticks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:23am
also except for one toadstool leather that I have kept, I did end up myself removing the leathers from my tank. I know that there are people that have kept both in their tanks, it was easier for me to remove them, ( I like the sps better myself)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MadReefer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:33am
Bob Fenner suggests 1.025 SG. I've been raising mine slowly over the last month and it is finally 1.025.
I don't have any experience with these, I don't think anyway (I don't know all the corals I have). But tileman and shaggydoo sound like they have the right idea. (toxins and S.G.)


Edited by MadReefer - January 06 2008 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 2:40pm
I keep my salinity at 1.025 and have no problem with Montiporas. Your Alk is low too.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammerhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 2:56pm
I have seen mixed reef tanks with leathers in them though. And what should my alk be at if it is too low. Cause my test only tests in milli?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faviasteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 2:59pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the salinity of the tropical ocean usually 35ppt, which is 1.0265 (specific gravity).  I know all the salt mixes tell us to have a lot lower salinity than that but it makes no sense.  If corals are taken from the ocean where the SG is 1.0265, then our tanks ought to be 1.0265 or very close to it.  You must have some tough acros to be thriving at 1.021.  An alk of 2.4 milliequivalents/liter (meq/l) is too low IMO.  My acros and montis do much better at 3.0 to 3.6 meq/l.  I try to keep my calcium at 425 ppm and my alk at 3.4 meq/l.  Add small doses of baking soda every day until your alk is higher.  Also, calibrate your refractometer with R.O. water to make sure it's giving you a true reading.  If you don't have a refractometer, check your hydrometer reading against someone with a good refractometer and then you'll know how to correct your measurement so you're getting a true reading.  Your lighting and water flow sound more than adequate and I agree toxins may be a problem.
 
To paraphrase Eric Borneman- "there is no magic to keeping healthy corals.  If they aren't thriving, there is a logical explanation." 
 
If you are using Oceanic salt, as far as I know, it is still excessively high in calcium and low in alkalinity.  1/2 Oceanic and 1/2 Instant Ocean is more balanced in terms of calcium and alk IMO.


Edited by faviasteve - January 06 2008 at 3:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 3:07pm
On average 35 ppt or 1.025 g/ml.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by hammerhead hammerhead wrote:

I have seen mixed reef tanks with leathers in them though. And what should my alk be at if it is too low. Cause my test only tests in milli?
 
Alk should be 9-14 dKH or 3.2-5 meq/l.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faviasteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 3:20pm

I'm not trying to argue but this is where I got my info.  It's interesteing the "experts" can't even agree what 35ppt equals.

Quote from Randy Holmes-Farley, March 2007 Reefkeeping Magezine

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php

"For reference, natural ocean water has an average salinity of about 35 ppt, corresponding to a specific gravity of about 1.0264 and a conductivity of 53 mS/cm.  Salinity, however, does vary substantially from place to place.

As far as I know, little real evidence suggests that keeping a coral reef aquarium at anything other than natural salinity levels is preferable. It appears to be common practice to keep marine fish, and in many cases reef aquaria, at somewhat lower than natural salinity levels. This practice stems, at least in part, from the belief that fish are less stressed at reduced salinity. Substantial misunderstandings also arise among aquarists as to how specific gravity really relates to salinity, especially considering temperature effects.

The salinity on natural reefs has been discussed in previous articles. My recommendation is to maintain salinity at a natural level. If the organisms in the aquarium are from brackish environments with lower salinity, or from the Red Sea with higher salinity, selecting something other than 35 ppt may make good sense. Otherwise, I suggest targeting a salinity of 35 ppt (specific gravity = 1.0264; conductivity = 53 mS/cm).

Fortunately, coral reef aquaria seem rather forgiving with respect to salinity.  The range of salinities encountered in what most would proclaim as successful reef aquaria is actually quite large.  Don’t agonize over small deviations from natural seawater.  You will not notice any benefit changing from 36 or 34 ppt to 35 ppt (specific gravity = 1.0256 to 1.0271).  Many fine reef aquaria appear to run at salinity levels as low as 31 ppt (specific gravity = 1.023), but bear in mind that the values that aquarists report (as well as your own measurements) are fairly likely to be inaccurate, so pushing the low or high end of the range may not be prudent. 

Bear in mind that if aquarists target salinity values different than 35 ppt, the amounts of calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, etc., will all likely deviate from natural levels as well.  For example, making artificial seawater to a low salinity will normally result in low values for these parameters and may require adjustments."



Edited by faviasteve - January 06 2008 at 3:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 4:02pm
Steve the relationship of the two values varies with the temperature.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faviasteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 4:50pm

I don't know if I understand exactly why the relationship between PPT and SG varies with temperature, but I'll accept that it does.  35 ppt measures the amount of dissolved stuff in the saltwater and the SG of that saltwater shows the corresponding density increase (compared to pure water) because of that dissolved stuff.  When you look at simply, it seems the two should be exactly proportional, independant of the temperature.

Because of articles like this, I've kept my SG at 1.026 for the last 3 years. with good success.  Sometimes after a little evaporation, it goes to 1.027 and everything seems as healthy as ever.  If Brad is having success at 1.024, that must be acceptable to most corals too.
 
Mike,
thanks for making me think about something I thought wasn't so complex. 
 
hammerhead,
I hope we adequately answered your questions.  Be careful and increase your salinity and alkalinity slowly.  A rapid change in any water parameter, even if it's a change for the better, can be shocking to fish and corals.
 
Good luck,
Steve
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 4:55pm
I've read this before Steve. I will try to find a reference.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hammerhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2008 at 5:01pm
Thanks for all the info guys.
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