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Mark Peterson 
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 Topic: 3/4 closed loop system?
Posted: March 27 2004 at 12:21pm |
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Has anyone opened a closed loop to their refugia?
I'm thinking of a valved branch off from the refugia. One of the inlets and one of the outlets in the main tank would have to be near the water surface, of course. The plumbing /fitting might be the key, kind of like a venturi sucking refugium water instead of air.
It would use the same pump for both the refugia and major circulation and have some of the benefit of a closed loop, wouldn't it.
Will it work?
Comments?
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jfinch
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Posted: March 27 2004 at 12:46pm |
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I'm not following. Can you sketch something up?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 7:52am |
I'm a terrible drarwer...but what I'm thinking is to put a T in the line between external pump and refugium. Water would be taken directly from the tank as in a closed loop, but have the refugia branch of the T valved so that 25% flows from the refugia and 75% comes down from the main tank. The pump would then send 100% back up through the normal plumbing.
Jakeh7056 has an ideal situation to try this out on, because we found that the way his overflow was built it cannot handle much water. It's an acrylic tank with a center brace right over the overflow. It would be a bugger to modify the slots, so I'd like to see if this will allow the tank to receive proper water movement.
It's possible that the idea is flawed and the water dropping down from the tank will flow into the refugium and into the pump at the same time, rather than water being sucked out of the refugium, but Jake H. has a very strong pump so it seems to me that it ought to work.
What does my favorite Chemical Engineer think of the idea? 
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Carl
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 8:17am |
Mark, I am still a bit cloudy on the details. Jon beat me to the more info request, but I thought that I might be able to assist as well. If you have a volume issue or a total flow restriction at your overflow, you will be limited by that restriction. If you try to pull or push water from the fuge, where will the water come from to replace the water volume evacuated from the fuge? In other words, using the fuge to increase the total flow is a good idea, but it is one that will last for about 3 seconds before the fuge runs dry.
I have my drains from both corners valved into the sump and refugium. If I throttle back on the discharge into the fuge, the flow increases to the sump. I think that it's a really good process, you've seen it. But, I am still regulated by how much flow the orifices in my drains/overflows can pass. This will be the key and is why drain lines should be oversized and valved.
Edited by Carl
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jfinch
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 8:40am |
I think I follow now. What you've described is a regular "sump" but with 75% of the flow bypassing the sump and going directly to the pump suction line. Bubbles might be very hard to eliminate from the drain line. And how will this restart after a power failure (i.e. after loss of syphon)? I think once the syphon is broke you're done unless you have an overflow box. I think you've lost the two advantages of closed loop.
1. no need for overflow box
2. recover the static pressure of the falling tank water at the suction of the pump (i.e. the pump will pump more water then in a sump situation).
Or am I still not understanding?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 9:43am |
Let me try again.
Take a closed loop.
Then make a lateral branch to the refugium where a valve will control the amount taken. The amount taken from the refugium will be replaced via the overflow, but of course the main closed loop bypases the overflow altogether, simply moving water around the tank.
As for how to avoid a flood during a power outage, part or all of both the intake and discharge lines need to be just below water level.
Edit: I just started to realize that since the system is open to atmospheric pressure via the refugia, the water coming down from the tank will have a value a pressure much higher than the water in the refugia. So I don't know which line should have the valve. 
Edited by Mark Peterson
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jfinch
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 11:31am |
Take a closed loop. Then make a lateral branch to the refugium where a valve will control the amount taken.
At that point, it's no longer closed loop...
After a power outage and the syphon is broke, how is it restarted?
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tomason
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 11:56am |
I think you'd have to have the pump suck from just one tank and then the other tank would have to overflow into the tank the pump is sucking from.
In this case, you can just elevate your refugium so that it's water level is a little higher than the main tank and then split the output of the pump between the two. When the pump is shut off, the water level between the display and refugium will try to equalize through the pump plumbing, so something would need to be done to break the siphon in the refugium outlet, like drilling a hole right under the water surface.
That gives you circulation to your display tank and to your refugium with one pump, which seems to be the initial goal.
The setup is really just like a sump + tank with the return pump output split so that it blows back into the sump for circulation.
Clear as water with calcium carbonate precipitation?
-Tom
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Carl
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Posted: March 30 2004 at 1:25pm |
That "closed-loop" term is just  'ing me! 
Edited by Carl
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 1:03am |
As far as I can deduce, the pump would be primed by water from the refugium. The same way the pump is for typical setups.
Edit: ahhh, I just realized what that means. In a closed loop the outlet from the tank to the pump can go up and over the top edge of the tank because the water always remains in the pipe even during a power outage.  thinking ...what if the outlet didn't go up and over but was a drilled outlet...hmmm, but that makes it the same as any ordinary overflow ... until the water rises enough
Carl, please don't . I know that this is not a closed loop. It just seemed like a good starting point for the idea to be discussed.
Most setups that include a sump with refugium have most of the water bypassing the refugium. This made me postulate that 100% of the water does not need to go down the overflow, but can be captured via an outlet in the tank itself, similar to a closed loop.
It then seemed plausible that this modified setup would gain some of the benefit of a closed loop, namely what Jon said earlier,"2. recover the static pressure of the falling tank water at the suction of the pump (i.e. the pump will pump more water than in a sump situation)."
If this is still not making sense, it appears that I should attempt to illustrate this idea, but I don't think you'll like my computer "drarwing sckils" so maybe I'll do it freehand and post a pic. Problem is, I'm still not sure if it will work even as I try to imagine how it will look, before I can even attempt to drawr it....
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Carl
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 9:56am |
See, the problem is that (as we have discussed before) the industry definition and the hobby's definition are different. To me, closed loop means that the water volume doesn't leave the local system to be captured/contained, processed or redelivered/reapplied. In this hobby, it seems that closed-loop means that the water doesn't leave the plumbing. It just leaves the tank, is "re-energized" and reenters the system. So, basically no filtration benefit, used solely to add to the flow of the tank. Am I on target here?
Mark, to me it would be pretty easy to do if the above is correct. If you are wanting to use refugium water to return, just get an external self-priming pump that really sucks! . Place the pump as close as possible to the refugium and let it go. During a power outtage, you will most likely have plenty of water in the "stand pipe" on the inlet of the pump, so the feed of water will be returned pretty quick when power is restored, avoiding running the pump dry for extended periods of time.
EDIT: But my thoughts are that you'll pull so much water out of the refugium so quickly that you will coprimise many of the positive benefits of having a refugium. Such as low flow for maximum nutrient export, algae growth, etc.
Edited by Carl
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jfinch
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 10:59am |
Carl, I think you'd get along with our Environmental Engineer 
I just don't think it'll work, but maybe I'm not visualizing it right. Sharpen that pencil Mark.
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Carl
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 12:10pm |
Somehow, I don't think that that's a compliment!
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Will Spencer
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 1:35pm |
I understand that the whole point of this is to come up with something new and to try to decide if it will work. I, however, am a big fan of the tried and true method. I want something that I can walk away from or go to work and not have to worry that something is a little off kilter and that I'm going to come home to another disaster.
So, along those lines, why not use the big pump in a truely closed loop, (The hobby term, not Carl's scientific use of the term,) and get a smaller pump to run through the sump and refugium. I would think this would be less risky, but might entail Adam's theory of a better aquarium. (Spend More Money.)
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 1:52pm |
 wsinbad1 wrote:
Adam's theory of a better aquarium. (Spend More Money.) |
Not my theory, I just pass it along as a joke about a current club member. But is pretty funny huh?
Adam
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Posted: March 31 2004 at 11:00pm |
wsinbad1 wrote:
I understand that the whole point of this is to come up with something new and to try to decide if it will work. I, however, am a big fan of the tried and true method.
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If no one ever tried something new we'd still be in the stone age .
In the actual setup, the sump is underneath my tank and the refugium is in a side cabinet.
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