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Keither View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 21 2003 at 1:34pm

I know the Gold standard for the club is using a RO/DI, but for those of us who want to start without this $100+ expense, what is the alternative?

Of course there's tap water with purifyers.

There's Store bought water, also a big cost.

Can some of you place your input on each.  The Pro's and cons and I"m sure RO is best, but what can one get away with and if I need to use an alternative, how can I combat issues?

Thanx

David

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 2:24pm

Request a full report from your municipal water quality department and post the list here.  IMO, it's the trace/heavy metals that would be of interest.  If they are low, you might not have any problems using it as is.  For make-up, using tap water mixed with kalkwasser can be ok as the kalkwasser (high pH) causes many of the metals in the tap water to precipitate out as metal oxides.  Kind of a self purification.  I know Mark Peterson uses tap water in his mini reef without problems, maybe others do too.  Conventional wisdom says to use RO water.

Have you checked local pet stores.  They're cost for RO water is not that outrageous ($0.25/gal).  Some stores may offer it free to regular customers.  I'm pretty sure Aquatica in Orem gives RO water for free to it's customers (there's always someone getting water when I'm in the store).

FWIW, I use laboratory grade DI water (perk of where I work), but if I didn't have access to this I'd buy an RO unit, because I don't like mooching from the fish store and $100 is not that bad when you think about how much make-up water you use.

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Keither View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keither Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 2:42pm

True Enough, it's just the problem of getting 55 gallons of RO water from a store poses a small problem.

 What's "kalkwasser"?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 3:39pm

I might be going out on a limb here, but you're almost certain to have a larger then average diatom bloom (brown algae) when cycling a tank on tap water.  I wouldn't let that scare you away from using it though.  It's very common to use tap water when initially starting a tank for the very reason you state (where am I going to get 100 gallons of RO water?).  One other thing regarding the use of tap water for constant make-up is what long term effects there might be.  Even if there are no short term (less then 1-2 yrs usage) effect the accumulative effect of adding small amounts of heavy metals to your reef over a 4-5 yr period can lead to problems (some people blame "old tank syndrome" on this accumulation of metals...).

Kalkwasser is calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2.  It's mixed with make-up water to help maintain calcium and carbonate levels in your tank.  Do a search on the internet for more detailed explaination and ask here if something doesn't make sense to you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 4:16pm

I have access to RO/DI water at work as well.  I get all I want free.  And guess what.... I use tap water in my tanks.  Maybe it is laziness, I don't know.  I guess after using RO/DI for so long I just decided one day that tap water can't be all that bad. 

I still think RO/DI is much better, I just don't use it.  That reminds me... I guess since I don't use mine anymore I now have a RO unit for sale.  If you are interested let me know.

Thanks

Adam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 5:17pm
Rob and I just get it from the grocery store. Since I'm a really bad consumer, we go every other day....I got a big rubbermaid tub on our dryer where I save H2o for water changes. I get 10 gals a trip, 2 or 3 trips to a water change!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GonZo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 8:31pm
I joined the club 3-4 months after I started my SW tank. As my initial monies were spent before I found about RO I used straight tap water for the first 6 months (using a chlorine remover/nulifier and Prime to take care of the heavy metals). Yes, there were heavy diatom blooms. To help with the metals in the tap water I purchased a PUR filter (the "best" they have) and attached it to the kitchen sink. Basically it pushes the water through a carbon filter. I have to replace the filter every 4 months (or so), so the long run cost is probally  higher than an RO unit, but works with the current budget. Now 9 months later the diatoms are in serious remission (had a flare up when I didn't do water changes), and am getting a healthy blend of algae on the rocks and tank walls. As long as the budget remains "limited" and everyone in the tank remains happy, this will be the solution used here.
Cortney (West Jordan)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 9:06pm

Hi,

Keither- "what is the alternative?"

Depending on the size of the tank, IMO, there is none. For a small 20g~ish tank, buying RO water might not be a big hassle. But for my 125, nothing beats pure water in my tank, on my command.

"Can some of you place your input on each.  The Pro's and cons"

Tap water purifier:

Con: Had to set it up every time. Frequently came off the faucet. Had to adjust it every time. It was very slow. Only 1 filter that was expensive and needed regular replacement.

Pro: It was in my house.

Buying LFS RO:

Con: The cost sucked. Having to go get it all the time sucked. The LFS running out sucked. Lugging buckets sucked. Spilling a bucket in the car sucked. Storing buckets sucked. My 55 would evaporate about 10 gallons per week plus waterchanges. It was a lot of work.

Pro: No initial cost for a RO unit. (which i believe is only a pro in the short term) No need to install the RO unit. (which isnt that hard) No need to replace filters. (which costs less/gallon than the store water) No need to understand another piece of reef equipment.

Buying grocery store RO:

See above, plus:

Con: Not knowing when/if they change their filters sucked. Have to buy a TDS meter.

Tap water:

Con: IMO, it's a risk. Even if the city says it's good. Even if I test it myself. Things happen to the quality of tap water. Atleast once a year I hear about a part of the valley that cant even drink their water for one reason or another. Do you think the city would bother to tell the public if something happened to water quality that was critical to reef animals? I seriously doubt it. 

I also believe that heavy metal accumulation is a possible cause of "old tank syndrome". Which of course would likely be accelerated by tap water.

Pro: It's REALLY cheap. You don't have to replace filters. You don't have to go somewhere to get it. It probably has more iron that might help macro growth..

 

If the costs of the RO were significantly greater, maybe I could see it another way. But I'm guessing the filter costs of a 3 stage RO unit for a 55 gallon tank would probably be less than 5 dollars a month (Depending of course on the quality of your water source).

Just ask yourself:

What's your time worth? What's your peace of mind worth? Is it really worth the hassle?

Maybe I'm lazy. Maybe I'm a chicken. But IMO, it's money well spent.

"if I need to use an alternative, how can I combat issues?"

Patience and faith?

 

:D

 

 

Ascultã tot, dar nu crede tot.

Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.
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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 10:10pm

Keither,

Actually, I would say that the "gold standard" is truly antiquated. There is money to be made in that product so that's where the most noise comes from.

There are a LOT of us that use tap water or water filtered in some other way. (FYI - Calcium Hydroxide can be used to effectively purify tap water for the initial tank water and for tap water used for make-up and water changes)

In addition to the methods mentioned above, there is very neat a system called Kold-Steril which sieves impurities on a molecular level. This filtration media removes metals and excess nutrients but leaves all the calcium and magnesium that was pre-existing in the tap water. Great for tanks with mostly soft coral and fish! The intial DIY set up is $125 including filtration media. Media replacement costs only $45 every 5000 gallons, much less expensive than RO/DI.

The place to check it out is www.poly-bio-marine.com and here is a 1991 Reef Tour pic of a 180 gal set up that has been using it for three years now with "no worries mate."

The coral and fish are much larger now and the coral have been fragged many times.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2003 at 10:33pm
The Pet Factory now has Kold-Sterile water available if anyone is interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2003 at 4:03pm
Right now, I just have a 45 gallon tank and have been picking up my RO/DI water at the LFS. But I've been looking around for more convenient options.

One thing I've looked at is the Poly-Filter pad:
http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/polyprod.htm

It claims to remove nitrates, phosphates, metals, and pretty much everything else. Here's a quote from that page:

"BECAUSE OF THIS UNIQUE FILTERING CHARACTERISTIC, THE POLY-FILTER ELIMINATES THE NEED AND EXPENSE OF CARBON OR ION EXCHANGE RESINS AND PROTEIN SKIMMERS." (all-caps is theirs)

I was thinking that maybe I could make some flow-through device with some of those pads to run my tap water through and use tap water for my tank.

Any thoughts on that? Those pads are quite cheap, and it wouldn't waste any water like an RO unit.

-Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2003 at 9:10pm
You may want to run down to TPF and talk to Jake. The KOld Sterile unit that he is running from poly-bio-marine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2003 at 10:14pm
Jake, I'm assuming you've used RO, RO/DI and kold sterile. How would you say the systems compare based on operating cost? i.e. how long do the various filters/membranes last and cost...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdawson8931 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2003 at 12:49am
My first tank fill to start the cycling process was from a carwash. (no kidding!) The low pressure, spotfree rinse is RO water. It was really fast to fill a 5gal jug but I got way to many looks like I was out of my mind (It scared me!) so I am now going to an RO/DI dispenser here in Layton. I have 9 5gal jugs I pack to and from. I only have to do this maybe once an month unless I need to refill my 30 gal saltwater holding tank. Not to terribly taxing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake Pehrson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2003 at 9:20am

Jon,

I can't really tell you about the Kold Sterile.  I have only been running it for a month or so.  I will let you know in a year.

 

Jake Pehrson

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:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ewaldsreef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2003 at 5:41pm
Keither, I will hook you up with free ro/di water if you like. I started my 10 gallon tank with tap water and had a ton of green hair algea. It was horrible. I cant say for sure it was the tap water that caused it but I am sure it added to the problem. For best results use ro/di water. Can you do a tank with tap water? Yes some people do. IMO I will never do a tank again on tap water water. Just bring a bucket to my house and fill it up.
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Keither View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keither Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2003 at 11:33pm
I knew you would Bruce I was just curious for the all around opinion :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2003 at 7:40am

RO units are really no more expensive (maybe less) than the Kold-steril thing...  Just search on eBay for RO filters: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2338366899&category=20684

You can get a 4-5 stage RO unit with holding tank for around $110-$130.  I'll stick to my "antiquated" RO unit for that price...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2003 at 1:56pm
I don't mean to offend anyone here but I've noticed that when starting a tank, the beginner has little knowledge of when and how to start algae control. On the other hand, an experienced reef keeper should be able to keep algae from getting out of control by utilizing preventive techniques. Tap water is no different than the purest water when one knows the indications and understands how to control nuisance algae. One of the techniques is to grow good algae. For example, Suzy discovered that feeding greenwater kept nuisance algal growth at bay.

Flaz,
You are probably looking at the list price for Kold-Steril which is somewhere above $300.

Seeing as how this is the DIY topic board, I thought we were talking DIY. The cost of parts needed to build a three canister water filter (minus the R.O. membrane) plus the Kold-Steril media is $125, roughly the same as a good deal on an R.O/D.I.
Ongoing media cost is only $45 for 5000 gallons (the same life expectancy as an R.O membrane and almost half the cost!) Unlike R.O. where the carbon and particulate filters need to be changed at a yearly cost of $10-$15, the entire Kold Steril media lasts the estimated 5000 gallons.

The clear advantage to Kold-Steril is not just the minor cost savings.

Kold-Steril wastes absolutely no water! (an appalling 20,000 - 25,000 gallons of water goes down the drain, wasted, during the life of the R.O. membrane!)

Kold-Steril delivers the existing Ca and Mg in the source water!

Though the Kold-Steril water is not as pure as R.O./D.I., it is much cleaner than tapwater so if someone doesn't believe me, that they can run their tank on tapwater, then Kold_Steril is the next logical choice, especially where adequate algae control is utilized.
In my humble opinion, Kold-Steril is clearly good enough for todays cutting edge reef aquarium.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KeoDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2003 at 7:08am
Mark, can you convert a 3 stage RO unit into a Kold-Steril unit and if so how much do you think it would cost?
Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
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