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Sculpin 
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 Topic: Zoanthid Problem- Why?
Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:07pm |
So in my parents 225 I've had a hard time growing zoanthids. They just kind of melt away. I figured if I started a Nano I could get away with growing zoanthids, however I did use the 225 too seed the tank. Once again my zoanthids are melting away in my nano.
I've been racking my brain trying to figure out why it does this. Everyone I've talked to say that zoanthids need a "dirty tank" but my ORP is running around 300 in my 225 (I have no idea what the nano is but I'm sure its around there or even lower).
I realized something last night as I was pondering this problem in bed. I remembered that zoanthids didn't always fair so poorly in the 225 so what did I change that could of caused this issue and what does it have in common with my nano (apart from the seeding thing)?
In both my nano and my 225 I'm using this lacy kind of caulerpa (not sure of the ID but a pic is provided below). I got the caulerpa a few years ago from Bluespotted Jawfish and it has since done very very well in my sump and in my recently set up Nano.
Could this be my problem? Could the caulerpa be taking vital trace elements or worse yet releasing some kind of defensive toxin into the water harming my zoanthids? I've herd of macro algae irritating coral but could it be waging war some other way?
Before I start removing the caourpa from my nano I wanted to ask you guys and see what you thought, also I'd like to hear of others who have this same issue and maybe we can find some commonality and source the problem for all of us.
Anyways, let me know what you think and thanks in advance.
Micah
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jmw
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:34pm |
First of all I'm new to the hobby so what is ORP? I had something similar to this happen to me. Alk, Cal and Mag were all in range, however my Ph checked very low. At that time I very very slowly added a Ph+ chemical and I started dosing iodine. I'm not sure which one helped out but my zoas are growing like crazy. Once Ph hit 8 I stopped dosing and it's held very well ever since. Hope any of this helps..
John
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ptronsp
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:48pm |
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This is interesting to me as well as once we started dosing with 8.4 my zoas look awesome.
Maybe that's the issue Sculpin.
Pam
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:50pm |
Ya know to be honest I've never actually taken a look at my PH before. I do have an aqua controller that reeds it for me and it generally says it's around 8.4. I have a cheep test kit, I'll check my nano right now.
Micah
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:55pm |
Well I thought I did but I don't.
I'll have to pick some up soon but something tells me this probably isn't the problem.
Micah
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jmw
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:58pm |
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I just reread my post and just to clarify I still dose iodine. And you never said what ORP means!!!?
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Josh95
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:00pm |
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whats in the nano? I have a pico loaded w/ zoas and mine grow and thrive even with swings in params. the SPS is also doing good. Try not to do a large water change in a month, and post all of your parameters here. I will try to help what i can offer. also tell of the fish in the tank, also where do you place the zoas? is the Nano HQI?
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:20pm |
 jmw wrote:
I just reread my post and just to clarify I still dose iodine. And you never said what ORP means!!!? |
Oh ya I'm sorry about that. ORP means oxidation reduction potential. To explain in the best way I can its a measurement of living and dead organic material in the tank. It's generally used in combination when dosing Ozone. The higher your ORP, the cleaner your water is, allowing for more light to get to your coral, and it kills parasites. The down side is it kills good stuff too.
To explain Ozone, for lack of a better term it's a gas that kills organic material. Most people will buy an ozone producing unit, hook it up to their protein skimmers air intake, and the skimmer will mix the ozone with the tank water, killing all living and dead organic material. This raises the ORP and when it gets high enough, a computer or other controlling device shuts the ozone down.
350-400 ORP is optimal. 250-300 ORP is a pretty dirty tank. One of the best benefits I've found with use of ORP is that it alerts me when something is going wrong. Large drops in ORP will signal if a fish has died or something of that nature.
Make sense? It sure didn't to me at first.
Micah
Edited by Sculpin - January 13 2011 at 9:26pm
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:24pm |
Josh95 wrote:
whats in the nano? I have a pico loaded w/ zoas and mine grow and thrive even with swings in params. the SPS is also doing good. Try not to do a large water change in a month, and post all of your parameters here. I will try to help what i can offer. also tell of the fish in the tank, also where do you place the zoas? is the Nano HQI?
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Fist off it's a 29 gallon biocube. I've got a total of 5 fish. Small Clown 2 Pajama Cardinals Bi-colored Blenny Yellow Gobbie
Zoanthids are placed in lower the mid levels of the tank.
Micah
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jbutler
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:38pm |
I run my tanks around 430 and my zoanthids are doing great. Low ORP probably means that you are low in one of the essential elements like alk, cal or magnesium. Having low ORP also is a good indicator that your PH is low. I would shoot for the 400's. If your alk, cal and mag are at the correct levels, the PH will naturally follow as well. Have you calibrated your ph probe lately? You'd be surprised at how fast they can get out of whack. In my experience though, zoas suffer most when there are phosphates present and low iodine levels in the tank. These are probably the two most important things for zoas and palys. I run phosphate absorber 24/7 and dose iodine religiously. Hope that helps.  |
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badfinger
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:47pm |
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To me.... 300 is not a dirty tank.... I would say 250-270 is "dirty". But my orp sits right at 300 then when I do a waterchange and/or add additives it goes down to about 260 and then slowly over 24hours raises to 280 and then back up to 300 over a few days.... but I also notice that most nights about 8 hours into night my orp raises to up to between 308-311.
Orp measures how electricity can go thru water (more or less been awhile since I read the article).. this is why it is more acurate to measure in volts... the electricity measures dissolved oxygen in the tank. More contaminents in the water the less the dissolved oxygen is.
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badfinger
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:51pm |
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Jared is right I would want my orp right around 400, if I had an ozone generator.... but still to me 300 is not a dirty tank.
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 10:01pm |
Po4 has always been trace in the 225. I've not recently calibrated the pH probe but I did just buy a new AC Apex so I'll be hooking up the new pH in the next couple of days. As for my other parameters on the 225- Ca- 400 Alk- 9.4 dkh Mag- 1200 Salinity- 1.025 Temp- 78-80.5
Lighting- 3 250w DE HQI and 2 54w T5HO
I really don't think it's the pH though. I'll get a test kit to check it out and calibrate my new probe but I just don't think it is the issue. As for dosing iodine, done it with both a kent solution and lugol's iodine solution with no positive results. I even bought a iodine test kit but the reeding were inconclusive to me. I then had a LFS test it and they said it was around .005 or something like that but after asking how accurate they were I was told that iodine levels are very difficult to tell. I even read an article about iodine replacement through feeding nori and I tried that for about 6 months too. My tangs sure loved it but once again, no positive results.
That said, this does bring something to mind. I know macro algae uses quite a bit of iodine and there are several types of iodine. Maybe this kind of macro is removing the necessary kind of iodine from the water that the zoanthids need. That could be a solid hypothesis. Still I'd like to get an algae expert in here.
Micah
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ptronsp
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:06pm |
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Micah have you ever used Auquavitro vibrance? We really like it.
Pam
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jmw
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:09pm |
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thanks for the explanation sculpin. your leagues ahead of me!!
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Luckedout
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Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:17pm |
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Would low iodine levels lead to the zoas melting away? I've had low levels and it just slowed growth, it didn't cause them to melt away.
How quickly did they disappear?
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-Ben
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www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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bur01014
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Posted: January 14 2011 at 12:01am |
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start dosing lugols....and get a magnifying glass to see if you have any critters on them....nudibranchs, flatworms, spiders, etc.....even if what you see isn't known to eat zoanthids, they still will irritate them causing them to close and not grow....are these newly purchased? or did you frag them from the larger tank? Did you dip them? If so, how? I personally think you have a pest problem.....most zoos will go through stages of not opening, but the melting and especially in both tanks, on all zoos, seems like you got some pests of some sort.....
if you can't see anything, pull out a small frag of them and do a freshwater dip for a few minutes....then examine the freshwater to see what you got going on, if anything...good luck
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Dion Richins
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Posted: January 14 2011 at 8:31am |
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What Jared said. Lugols is NOT a good choice. I use The "Fuel" brand. It is medical grade. I was explained all this the other night from someone in the hobby that has a Biomedical degree. But for the life of me I cant remember exactly why Lugols is considered bad. I just know it made a big difference when I switched over several months ago.
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MadReefer
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Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:28am |
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My dad doesn't dose much and all he ever has added is alk, cal, and mag, and his zoas are growing great. He also hasn't done a water change in about a year. So I would guess that it isn't because you are missing something that you can dose. But this has me confused, so I guess I'm not much help.
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Sculpin
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Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:35am |
What I'd really like to know is, who else has this problem. From there I can start figuring out what similarities I have with their tanks and maybe we can trace it back to the source.
Micah
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