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jmorrell 
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 Topic: growing sps without a skimmer.
Posted: January 16 2010 at 6:43pm |
I just wanted to share this video I found with everyone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PKjd-TA1kM
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 6:48pm |
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His tank doesn't have a calcium reactor, Protein skimmer, Or even a sump!
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partsguy247
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:12am |
It can be done without skimmer, sump, or calcium reactor. My brother has been doing it for years. I am still amazed when ever I see his tank.  
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 8:52am |
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Thats a good looking tank. what does he have for filtration.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 9:19am |
Welcome to the world of the WMAS hobbyist. You seem to be surprised at the idea of no outside filtration. Did you know that about 80% of a reef tanks filtration is the LS and LR! 
Did you know that coral filters the water whereas fish pollute it! (I can't see any fish in the tank pictured above. and the Youtube tank had very few fish for it's size.)
Did you know that the coral, the coralline algae and the soft green algae growing on the surfaces in a tank make up the other 20% of the filtration!
Did you know that the purpose of a Skimmer is to remove some of the suspended organic waste before the tanks biological filtration has to get to work on it, essentially making room for more "polluters"
Did you know that many hobbyists here on this MB run their tanks skimmerless and many of them are sumpless as well!
Did you know that since 1997 I have run all my tanks without a skimmer and yet have grown many thousands of dollars worth of all types of coral! To see some pics look here in the Tips and How to's section under the heading, "Pictures of my reef aquariums" It also gives a glimpse of my sps, lps and soft coral farming setup which had none of that extra equipment. http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Edited by Mark Peterson - January 17 2010 at 10:26am
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Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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bfessler
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:11pm |
Yup,
As long as you don'e exceed the natural filtration in your tank you really don't need any of that stuff. All 3 of my tanks run without a skimmer or sump and everything from SPS to Softies grow quite nicely together in the same tank. My 28 Gallon Nano has a wide variety of corals including SPS, LPS, Softies, and Leathers, as well as a Foxface, 2 Chromis, 2 Clowns, and a wrasse with no need for a protein skimmer or sump.
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Burt
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fishoutawater
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:31pm |
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I don't know, after all the $$$ you invest in your tank, a skimmer seems like cheap insurance. Your tank may not "need" it to prosper, but I don't see any downside to having one. Aside from pulling crud out of your tank, it helps with oxygenation, which I would guess helps maintain ph, and it never adds anything bad to your tank. You may drive your whole life without ever "needing" a seat belt, but....
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bfessler
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 1:53pm |
If you have a tendency to over feed or over stock then you're right a skimmer is great insurance. There is probably no downside to having one either other than it does remove many nutrients that the corals and bugs could use.
There are 2 basic schools of thought and neither one is bad.
1. A balanced system with sufficient bugs, algae, bacteria, live sand, live rock and coral to eliminate the excess nutrients and wastes produced by fish and introduction of foods to the system
2. Using protein skimming to remove excess food and waste before it can be broken down into ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
Many people want to maximize the number of fish and feed them well and require the added nutrient removal of a protein skimmer. No problem for me. I think they're great, but in my case I travel frequently and can't keep a close eye on the tank at all times. The less things that can fail the better so I try to moderately stock feed lightly automate what I can and let the tank take care of itself. It works for me and I haven't had to limit the types of coral I can keep except those that require frequent spot feeding.
The point is not that you shouldn't have a protein skimmer or that they are somehow an unnecessary expense but rather that if you set up and maintain your tank right you don't have to have a skimmer.
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Burt
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 4:53pm |
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I dont overfeed, and definately don't over stock (5 fish in a 150 gallon). I don't run a skimmer or any of the other fancy gadgets, but I do have a sump with a large refugium.
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 4:57pm |
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when I had a skimmer on my tank, all the coral seemed to grow a lot slower. My tank is filled with mainly lps, and a few softies. I have been too scared to try sps due to the fact I wasn't running some insane skimmer.
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bfessler
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:38pm |
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I would go ahead and try some SPS. My first SPS was a Monticap that I got from a fellow club member. It was just a chip of his probably less than a 1/2" square. Now I have a nice size piece in my Nano about 8" across with several cups on it and about 4 frags of the same coral in the frag tank and I have sold 2 frags and gave away one. Next I tried Milipora and its going great, I now have bird nest Idaho grape, blue tort, piclopora (spelling) and all are doing great with no skimmer, sump or halide lights. My experience is that if the tank is mature has plenty of flow and good lighting SPS grow fine.
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Burt
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thefu
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:41pm |
Softies will definitely grow very slow in a super clean water tank (i.e. one with a skimmer and ozone). I had a bunch of softies when I bought my tank and they thrived...I got the tank conditions improved and the water cleaned up and they became stunted and some shriveled away.
I think that it is, as Mark says, a matter of bio load and the ability for the tank to process it. If you have very few SPS and/or fish per gallon of water and have good sand, rock, and water movement, you will be fine. However, if you try and grow lots of SPS and have a lot of fish, and you want the coral to grow, you will have to feed it more and there will be more need for waste removal than the tank may support.
I would simply say...why? A skimmer is not that much money, and if you decide to grow quite a few large colonies, you are risking $. These are dollars that you can make off of selling frags to pay for the skimmer.
Lastly, the reason the tank in that photo above is also doing so well is there is a TON of water movement in there. The vortech alone is the same cost as a skimmer :)
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bfessler
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:53pm |
I guess it just depends on your goals for the tank.
Maybe I would see more explosive growth in the SPS if I had a skimmer but if my Monticap grow any faster I won't be able to keep up with it. I find good to excellent growth in everything from Zoos and button polyps, Leathers, LPS and SPS without a skimmer and have low nitrates and phosphates to boot. If cleaning up the water some would stunt the LPS I don't see the point.
You can also get great flow without a Viortech.
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Burt
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Jeffs_little_ocean
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:56pm |
Yeah, he does have a TON of flow in there. I didnt notice until you pointed that out. 7 or 8 powerheads. I think I need more flow.
Burt, you make me want to try some SPS.
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Life is good....right?
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:56pm |
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yeah I don't plan to buy a vortech any time soon. I will stick to koralia magnums.
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thefu
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 6:01pm |
I am not saying you would see more explosive growth without the skimmer. I am saying that if a person wants to feed their corals alot and have lots of SPS and fish, then there will be a need for a skimmer. But, its a balance to the water volume, rock, and sand. Monticaps are the easier to please of the SPS in this department. The soft corals will do well too in a "dirtier" environment. I just don't want people to believe they can have the tank below, loaded up like that and without algae, without a skimmer.
It may not be your thing, but its a far cry from the images above (not that there is anything wrong with the above, but it is different)
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thefu
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 6:03pm |
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I have a Koralia Magnum 5, great flow, but I will be getting rid of it because it is too big and ugly. Let me know if anyone needs one...
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thefu
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 6:05pm |
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Ya, I count seven powerheads and one return in that tank above. That thing must be like a washing machine!
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jmorrell
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 6:11pm |
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You are right Thefu, if you are going to have a sps filled tank with a decent amount of fish then a skimmer is a good idea. If you are going to have a lps/softies tank, Without a load of fish, you could probably do fine without a skimmer
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MadReefer
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 7:12pm |
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How many people have tried without a skimmer? Out of those, how many are successful? If unsuccessful, can it be attributed to the lack of skimming or something else? If successful, was it because of an understanding of bioload and filtration?
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