Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Shane H
Presidency
Joined: March 09 2003
Location: Brigham City
Status: Offline
Points: 7921
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Topic: DIY buffer Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:24pm |
So, Jon - I'm making up another batch of buffer and was wondering if you see any benefits to adding borate to the mix?
Are there any benefits?
Any downsides?
What ratio would you use if you think it should be added?
Would you just use the 20 Mule Team Borax?
Did we talk about this on the way to Boise?
Is this enough questions for one post?
|
 |
nick
Guest
Joined: January 05 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 284
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:30pm |
Hey Shane,please if you don't mind me asking,what do you mean by making a batch of buffer.
|
The Eyes Of Texas Are Upon You.
Hook'em Horns.
|
 |
Shane H
Presidency
Joined: March 09 2003
Location: Brigham City
Status: Offline
Points: 7921
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:34pm |
Rather than buying commercial buffer, I generally just make my own. I have been following Jon's recommended recipe of 5 parts baking soda to 1 part washing soda with great success. I add it occassionally, (or often lately) to increase alkalinity.
But, I was reading the ingredients on an empty container of Kents SuperBuffer dkH and saw that it contains borate salts. So, I'm wondering why they add this?
|
 |
bugzme
Guest
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: West Jordan
Status: Offline
Points: 4815
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:53pm |
That would be a great addition to the how to pamplets! Ive never heard of that.
|
Jeff
125 tank
50 gallon sump
T-5 lighting
Rum drinker, Carbon User
I KNOW ROCKS THAT ARE YOUNGER THEN ME!! I AM A Realist! I write what I think!!
|
 |
nick
Guest
Joined: January 05 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 284
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:59pm |
Thanks for the info Shane,like Jeff was saying it would be nice if this kind of information was on a pamphlet for new guys like us.
|
The Eyes Of Texas Are Upon You.
Hook'em Horns.
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 29 2005 at 10:45pm |
I do not suggest adding any borate (borax) to your buffer mix. Seawater is only about 5 ppm boron and is not really consumed in reef tanks. So, I think you will get enough from your saltmix.
Are there any benefits?
Yes, borate is a wonderful buffer. Better then carbonates at keeping pH at 8.3.
Any downsides?
Yes. Since it is not readily consumed in your tank, it will slowly accumulate. Borates are included when you test for alkalinity. Normally, borates only account for about 3% of your total alkalinty, so we just ignore it and assume all of our alkalinity is due to carbonates (the good stuff that corals need). But as it accumulates, more and more of your alkalinity measurement will be borates and not carbonates. So you might think you have an alkalinity (due to carbonates) of 3 meq/l but in reality it might only be 1 meq/l carbonates and 2 meq/l borates. Your corals will suffer due to the low carbonates.
The other issue is that at levels around 50 ppm it becomes toxic to some aquatic life.
Would you just use the 20 Mule Team Borax?
Yup, if I were to add borates, I'd use 20 Mule Team.
Did we talk about this on the way to Boise?
I don't think so.
Is this enough questions for one post?
I'm always game for more 
...Kents SuperBuffer dkH and saw that it contains borate salts. So, I'm wondering why they add this?
They add it to help maintain pH, imo. It likely contains a very very small amount. But do not use Seachem Marine pH 8.3 Marine Buffer. It contains HUGE amounts of borate and can raise havoc in a reef tank. It's likely ok for a fish only though.
DIY Buffer for the new people :
5 parts baking soda 1 part washing soda (you can bake baking soda at 300F for 2 hrs to make washing soda)
It's as simple as that!
|
|
 |
Shane H
Presidency
Joined: March 09 2003
Location: Brigham City
Status: Offline
Points: 7921
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 30 2005 at 10:46am |
Jon,
Thanks for the info. I knew you knew.
Shane H
|
 |
Robudda
Guest
Joined: April 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 173
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 30 2005 at 11:08am |
How much do you normally make? how long is it good for? And do you
just add let's say a tsp of powder straight to the water, or add it to
your water change water that sits for a day or 2? I see so many that
say alkalinity should be 8-12dkh, but my test strips give my results in
ppm (I will be upgarding testing equipment soon) but let's say my test strip has 180ppm
is this Ok or does it need to be raised, and how much of this homemade
buffer should be added?
example-1 tsp per gallon during water change will raise Alkalinity this much ppm or this much dkh.
Sorry still a newb but this sounds interesting (and would be a good topic in the Sw pamphlet they been talking about)
Rob
Edited by Robudda
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 30 2005 at 2:15pm |
how long is it good for?
A really long time. Don't worry about it going bad.
And do you just add let's say a tsp of powder straight to the water, or add it to your water change water that sits for a day or 2?
Just add some to your make-up water, let it dissolve and then slowly pour it into your sump or tank. The amount to be added depends on the size of your tank and your current alkalinity.
I see so many that say alkalinity should be 8-12dkh, but my test strips give my results in ppm (I will be upgarding testing equipment soon) but let's say my test strip has 180ppm is this Ok or does it need to be raised, and how much of this homemade buffer should be added?
There are three ways to describe alkalinity (kinda like there are two ways to describe temperature, degrees F and C): meq/l, dKH and ppm CaCO3. And
1 meq/l = 2.8 dKH = 50 ppm CaCO3
So your 180 ppm = 180/50*1 = 3.6 meq/l or
180/50*2.8 = 10.1 dKH
You're alkalinity is just fine (assuming those test strips work).
|
|
 |
Robudda
Guest
Joined: April 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 173
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 30 2005 at 3:03pm |
Wow , thanks so much for the explanation and ppm to dkh conversion. That helps a lot.
I do not fully trust the test strips. The ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate seems
pretty stable, but does not show the accuracy (As in the in between
numbers, it is frustarting to say it is lighter then this but darker
then this with such a wide range) I would like, and PH and Alk seem to
change from test strip to test strip. I will start to purchase a few of
the most important Salifert tests a couple at a time.
Thanks again,
Rob
|
 |
bugzme
Guest
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: West Jordan
Status: Offline
Points: 4815
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: April 30 2005 at 3:40pm |
I wouldn't put anything in my tanks without accurate test kits! Strips are not accurate IMO
|
Jeff
125 tank
50 gallon sump
T-5 lighting
Rum drinker, Carbon User
I KNOW ROCKS THAT ARE YOUNGER THEN ME!! I AM A Realist! I write what I think!!
|
 |
Xacttech
Guest
Joined: January 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 625
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 01 2005 at 11:16pm |
So those of you who use Baking Soda/washing soda, what Calcium
additive do you use as your part B?
Also if you have been using B-ionic on your system for a few months, and
switch to the Homebrew system what is a good starting dose on a 95
gallon tank w/ 125 gallon gross system?
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 12:01am |
what Calcium additive do you use as your part B?
Kent's Turbo Calcium is the most common. The DIY crowd uses Peladow or Dowflake (or Prestone Driveway Heat) calcium chloride ice melt. Those are the only brands I would try.
Also if you have been using B-ionic on your system for a few months, and switch to the Homebrew system what is a good starting dose on a 95 gallon tank w/ 125 gallon gross system?
First off, I personally don't recommend using just baking soda and calcium chloride in place of B-ionic (although there are folks here that do and appear to be successful at it). B-ionic also contains a bunch of other elements found in seawater that aren't in baking soda. But as for how much to use... how much B-ionic are you using now?
|
|
 |
Xacttech
Guest
Joined: January 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 625
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 10:05am |
About 15 ml per day.
What other essentail elements does it add that I don't get from my weekly
5% water change, or as long as I keep up on the water changes will I be
okay to switch to DIY buffer?
Or is the B-ionic fully worth the $$ based on performance and benefits.
What are those who have a calcium reactor supposed to do to get those
elements that B-ionic add?
Thanks for all the help, sorry to hijack the thread
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 11:19am |
15 ml of B-ionic is equivalent to 3.5 g of baking soda (about 1 tsp) and 2.3 g of turbo calcium (just under a tsp).
What other essentail elements does it add that I don't get from my weekly 5% water change, or as long as I keep up on the water changes will I be okay to switch to DIY buffer?
If all you add is NaHCO3 and CaCl2 then over time as the CO3 and Ca are consumed by your coral, the remaining Na and Cl will accumulate. This is what is refered to as "ionic imbalance". B-ionic contains all the other elements found in seawater to "balance" out all the excess Na and Cl.
Or is the B-ionic fully worth the $$ based on performance and benefits.
*shrug*. I really like B-ionic for a low-medium calcium demand tank, but you might want to speak to people using just baking soda and CaCl2 too.
What are those who have a calcium reactor supposed to do to get those elements that B-ionic add?
When you dissolve coral skeleton, you don't have those excess Cl and Na ions so an ionic imbalance doesn't occur. And the idea is that whatever elements that were needed for coral skeleton growth will be dissolved in the reactor and added to the tank for new coral growth.
|
|
 |
Xacttech
Guest
Joined: January 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 625
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 12:32pm |
Okay, so what do you suggest...
I don't believe my tank is currently a high demanding calcium tank, only
10 or so SPS Frags, 2 LPS, 1 Clam, 120 gallon gross.
Oceanic Salt, 5-10 gallons weekly water change. Tap water Top off, RO
for changes.
Just looking for my best, most cost effective solution.
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 12:35pm |
Just looking for my best, most cost effective solution.
Kalkwasser every day with the occasional "boost" from baking soda and CaCl2 when/if needed.
|
|
 |
Xacttech
Guest
Joined: January 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 625
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 2:02pm |
Thanks for the suggestion...
I don't like the idea of Kalkwasser however... not really for any good
reason other than it seams accidental over dose occurs with it more than
any other buffering agent. I'm a little bit scared from the horror stories
I've heard/wittnessed.
Is it your opinion that Kalkwasser is better than B-ionic, or just more cost
effective?
Maybe I'll give it a go, but I think I need a surefire dosing method that
won't cause ulcers
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 2:28pm |
Kalkwasser is definatly the most difficult additive to dose. It's unforgiving. You must watch your pH. But it's not so difficult that you can't do it.
Is it your opinion that Kalkwasser is better than B-ionic, or just more cost effective?
Just more cost effective. If cost was not an issue, I'd throw my kalkwasser and calcium reactor in the garbage and only use B-ionic!
Maybe I'll give it a go, but I think I need a surefire dosing method that won't cause ulcers
If you're afraid to drip then how 'bout doing what Julian Spung does (and still suggests). Add 1/8 - 1/2 tsp of kalk to 1 quart of RO water, stir it up and just dump it into your sump. Do this every day just before going to bed (and maybe even every morning too).
|
|
 |
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 02 2005 at 2:31pm |
Oh I forgot...
Don't let me or anyone else pressure you into doing something you're not comfortable with. There are many ways to maintain alk and calcium in a reef tank. Chose one that you're comfortable with.
|
|
 |