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Corals Dying-plz help

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rufessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 12:23pm

First - clearly something is wrong, or off, or different.  
In terms of Alk being the sole reason- maybe.  
I agree with DLindquist in so much as that I doubt a crisis was reached in Alk levels at 7 if its been there for a long time, this is biology were talking about and that means that there is a pretty wide range of tolerated levels.  You will be able to promote more stability and faster calcification with a higher level, but MANY people are pretty convinced that raising Alk into the higher end of what some people advocate is NOT beneficial and some corals BURN with high Alk.  So I would seriously think about Alk dosing as an "emergency" remedy- the ONLY time I have killed something in my tanks due to dosing was.... 

by dosing Alk trying to chase a stupid number from a test kit. 

Your tank looks very clean, lots of growth and many corals apparently unaffected so I would ask if you put carbon in or changed it, did a larger water change, and then take your time adjusting parameters from there.  It is worth taking into consideration Marks comment about the tank perhaps starting to out grow your dosing protocol due to expanded colony size and growth and you should try to probably bring the Alk up but just be a bit careful here and don't raise it fast.  I am absolutely sure you can continue to use concentrated Alk supplements to bring it up... but

In my experience, using a Kalk Water drip or even using Kalk water as your ATO is probably the best way to get around Alk/Ca imbalances.  I switched to using 1-1.5 tsp of KalkPowder per gallon of ATO water (with 1 tbsp of store bought white vinegar per tsp of Kalk in the water) and run through around 7 gals a week (thats almost 9 tsp of pure kalk powder going into my tank every week) and I can BARELY maintain my Ca JUST at or near 400 with reasonable Alk levels.  The ONLY thing I dose is Mg a few times a week just with a teaspoon and I use Reef FUEL for amino acid/vitamin/trace supplementation.  I have been running this way for 5 months and I can tell you my tank has never been easier to care for, cheaper to maintain nor have the corals ever looked so good and grown so well.

I want to say that your tank really looks nice- a recent full tank shot with full lights on will help but asside from the fact that your loosing some corals its looking like your honestly doing a very decent job.  I dont want to be fatalistic but everyone looses a coral now and again and sometimes we think we know why or it is abundantly clear that the water chem was seriously neglected.  In your case, yes its a problem but barring other tests that show issues I would caution you against over reacting.  But DO consider a change to your dosing to keep up with the tank.  GO SLOW.  

That said, WATCH everything -if more start going your going to have to figure out what's up and FAST.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E.
57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 2:57pm
Good points by dlindquist and rufessor.

I need to explain why I believe the 7 dKH was the culprit for these coral. Please forgive my rambling. I hope this will make sense.

In the ocean, the water parameters, water movement, lighting, etc., etc. are all perfect and fairly constant. Our tanks are only approximations of the ocean, but sometimes they are so disparate that it is surprising anything lives in some of the tanks I've seen.

I have long espoused the idea that because we cannot possibly provide all the right conditions, like live plankton, proper water cleanliness and all the trace elements that everything needs, that some things need to be done "better" than in the ocean. Artificially maintaining Alk at around 9-10 is one of these things that seems to compensate for other shortcomings.

A tank can appear to be in pretty good shape on the surface, but when the hobbyist is unfamiliar with the proper methods of testing and dosing, I'm pretty sure that the Alk, which may have been slowly declining for months, is the problem.
Not all coral react as quickly to low Alk.
The effects of low Alk are very delayed.
Everything can look good for a while even with low Alk but then all of a sudden the entire tank crashes. I'm not just throwing out a fatalistic idea here. I've seen it many times in many hobbyists tanks.

Long ago I tried an experiment. I went a long time without water changes or supplements. After 18 months I [finally] noticed that coral had stopped growing. What caught my attention was that some coral began to decline rapidly. I resumed 10% monthly water changes. In the end it wasn't so much the lack of water changes as it was the fact that Alkalinity had dropped dangerously low. Getting Alk and Ca quickly back in line was what it took to see this tank thrive again.

Hope this helps.
Big smile

Oh and the caution rufessor wrote to finish his post is perfectly in line with the information and advice I am giving, "WATCH everything -if more start going your going to have to figure out what's up and FAST."
Do not delay. Raise Alk at a rate of .5 -1.0 dKH per day ASAP until it reaches ~9 dKH
This will only take a few days. If, within a few more days, this does not stop the decline, call me or come back here with a full tank pic and we will work on the next step. Yes, there are more things we (I) can suggest. I have been at this for 20 years, very intently helping 1000's of WMAS hobbyists. This is a gift that I must share.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 1:17am
Oh no, I miss your guys recommendation a bit too late.  My SPS has turned all white now.  Others haven't recovery yet.  Oh well, I guess I gonna save that Vitamin C for myself for the flu season then.Ouch
Here are some pics part of my tank, some of stocks still doing ok.  Can't get a full shot, still figure it out with this camera..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 1:18am
And here are couple more..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 1:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 6:41am
I have to agree with dlindquist too about ALK not being the problem. 7dkh is not low at all IMO. I have always kept my ALK between 6.5-7.5 dKH with zero negative effects. I also lost count as to how many world reknown reef tanks run their ALK at 7.

One possible problem that I see is that dosing vitamin C further damaged your already stressed corals. All in all, vitamin C is a form of carbon dosing much like dosing vodka, vinegar, sugar, etc. It is a very complicated treatment that if done even slightly incorrectly, will damage your reef. One of the things that is most overlooked and brushed off when dosing carbon sources is the real need for an oversized protein skimmer. The key word is "oversized," preferably a high quality skimmer rated for twice your water volume on a normal to heavy bioload. Here's how it works...

-You dose a carbon source into your aquarium which directly feeds the bacteria and causes a huge population bloom.
-The increased bacterial population is in dire need of nutrients so they consume tons and tons of nitrates and phosphates.
-Bacteria start to die off and that's where the oversized skimmer comes in. To suck out all the dead organisms because at that point they are just pollution.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 11:19am
That's a great 3 point summary of Artificial Carbon Dosing.Thumbs Up

Hey, Look at the black and white pic of the Birdsnest. Shocked It's lowest branches are alive. Big smile

I agree with BillyC that the artificial carbon dosing method must be watched carefully and requires extra care. Han/FishnFriendz's tank is different. There has been no artificial carbon dosing. An Alk reading of 7 is low for this tank. In this situation, as in most, Alk needs to be higher to keep things doing good.

The algae growing on the tip surfaces of the retracted Sinularia coral could be an indication that something has died or is out of whack. At this point we know that most of the Birdsnest died and that Alk is lower than it should be. Han, have you been raising the Alk?

Regarding that camera, I wonder if the "Macro" mode is ON. If the Macro button is pushed does it take regular pics?

Sometimes reef aquariums go through periods of death and regrowth. Birdsnest coral are famous for dieing while their neighbor SPS survive unscathed.

Looking again at the pics, I can see that something is indeed out of whack. After raising the Alk, it could be helpful to discover if anything else has contributed to the problem. We need more info.
Were there any other changes made to this system within the last month?
Was the salt mix changed?
Was a new additive used?
New AC or other media?
How is the skimmer doing?
What other additives are being used on this tank?
Lighting change? Answered in post on page 1
How has the water flow changed for the Birdsnest?
Can we see a pic of the sump/Refugium?


Consider this FYI:
Carbon dosing can be done without artificial chemicals or liquor. Simple food is a carbon source. Feeding more pure healthy foods is a way to increase the health and growth of a reef aquarium. The pure, healthy foods I am referring to feed the lowest level s of the food chain. They are are Phytoplankton and things like dry spirolina powder, Rotifers, invert foods and frozen meaty foods that have been pulverized.
Big smile


Edited by Mark Peterson - May 12 2012 at 11:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:



I agree with BillyC that the artificial carbon dosing method must be watched carefully and requires extra care. Han/FishnFriendz's tank is different. There has been no artificial carbon dosing. An Alk reading of 7 is low for this tank. In this situation, as in most, Alk needs to be higher to keep things doing good.



Thanks Mark. However I disagree with you when you say there has been no artificial carbon dosing.

Vitamin C dosing is a form of artificial carbon dosing. Reading back, he stated that he was dosing 1tsp/day which is a HUGE amount to start with. As with dosing other forms of carbon, you have to acclimate your tank to carbon dowsing and start with a very small amount everyday and ramp up to higher doses very slowly. I would almost bet money that 1) The poster's skimmer was not large enough to handle carbon dosing and 2) the vitamin C dosing was a huge factor with the corals dying.

Also, yes I agree that there are other ways to add carbon by using regular food. However, food also contains phosphates and other pollutants whereas sources like vinegar, vodka, sugar, vitamin c, etc, do not. To achieve the same increase in bacterial biomass by using carbon-specific sources using food, you would end up crashing the tank with fatal levels of pollutants.

I'm also curious as to what indicators led you to believe that 7dkh is low for this tank?



Edited by BillyC - May 12 2012 at 11:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bur01014 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 4:22pm
Wow, I'm surprised people run their tanks at 7dkh.....each time a water change is done, your poor corals are constantly being shocked, unless you use oceanic salt with low alk...

Average alk is 9, get it up, period...the danger comes when the alk swings and yes it always swings, especially every three days you dose(as you said, which is bad, dose daily or more) or do a small water change.  I have to dose every hour.  My tank uses 1 dkh of alk per day, I'd rather have my alk swing from 9-10, then 6-7...which is playing with fire.

Yes, corals can thrive and survive on 7, but there is no reason to hug the line so close, especially when test kits are commonly off by 1dkh.  Alk of 6 is dangerous in a box of glass...especially if you have SPS....if it wasn't, most salts for sale would strive for that range...I know I am not searching for a salt that advertises the Alk to be 7.

I would get some new test kits, or on the other hand what test kits are you using? I am worried about the complete balance of your system.  When you say that you can never get your alk above 7 worries me, as this shows us their is an imbalance in the big three.

I think the vitamin C probably played a part in the coral decline...however, its effects would likely have been minimized if your Alk was in "safe" levels, corals usually decline when multiple issues are occurring.  The stress likely became too much. 

However, 7dkh is too low...this isn't a zeovit tank...you only dose 10ml of alk every three days????   Just by your tank pics, you could easily dose that amount daily. Your cap, should be consuming all 10 mls by itself.... I dose 40 ml of alk daily for my nano. 

I wish you the best of luck with this, it can be quite frustrating.  When things go bad, follow the KISS method (keep it simple stupid)...don't take offense, it's just a saying ! Wink  Good luck!


Edited by bur01014 - May 12 2012 at 4:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2012 at 10:15am
Originally posted by BillyC BillyC wrote:

Vitamin C dosing is a form of artificial carbon dosing. Reading back, he stated that he was dosing 1tsp/day which is a HUGE amount to start with.
Yes, but as I recall, he also said that he only dosed twice with the Vitamin C. Like was just said, it may have been a factor only because the Alk level had already been hovering on the edge of disaster for a tank with this much stony coral.
We also know that Alk drops a little at the beginning of carbon dosing. Another reason why I believe that low Alk was the determining factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 1:00pm
Were there any other changes made to this system within the last month?
     Changed the MP40es to select different mode every 3 hrs, plus reducing the speed a bit.  Before it was running with Nutrition mode for 24/7.

Was the salt mix changed?
     I haven't changed my salt.  Instant Ocean Reef Crystal is the one I have been using.

Was a new additive used?
      Vitamin C- dosed totally 2 tsp mix (with 2 cup of water) for 2 days

New AC or other media?
       Last change was 2 weeks ago (A.C and GFO *Phosphate Remover)

How is the skimmer doing?
       Still working as usual. It juices out half a cup every week.

What other additives are being used on this tank?
        Kent dKH buffer, Mg (from Bulkreef supply), A&B

Lighting change? Answered in post on page 1
How has the water flow changed for the Birdsnest?
        Moved up a little bit, flow on top of the birdnest.  It flown straight to him before. 

Can we see a pic of the sump/Refugium?
         Yes, I will come up one this week.
** Since I taken your guys advices.  I starts dosing 5ml each A&B daily for 5 days, also 3 tsp of Alk for 2 gal of topoff water** I am afraid "too fast too furious",  my pH now is from 8.33 up to 8.50.  Did 10 gal water change.  Will replace new AC, and GFO this week.**
   Birdsnest is unrescueable, but I would like to save the other 2.  Especially  Sinularia coral which one of my first coral I have.  It is more than just al coral, it is a sentimental thing..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 5:25pm
Good.
You have increased the dosing of Alkalinity supplements but one important thing is missing from your report.  Instead of giving us the new Alkalinity reading, you gave us pH. Are you clear on the difference between Alk and pH? They are not the same thing. Before anything else, we need to know the Ak and Ca numbers. We need to know the Ca number because it is inter-related with Alk.

Well, if I were the Birdsnest I would have started screaming as soon as the flow changed. My pee&poop was no longer being blown completely away and my food was no longer being brought to me like before. Since I'm an SPS, I'm very sensitive to these things and because I was starving for Alkalinity anyway, I died.

The Sinularia will survive and be fine. It can handle these kind of temporary setbacks.

FYI, at this point, water changes are just wasting salt. It's the Alk that must be set right and not via water changes.

Are you able to check the Mg level? If not, please don't add any more Mg until knowing the level.
Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2012 at 1:53am
Hi all,
First of all I would like to thanks for all of you who have spent time to diagnose my tank issue. Today I buy a new test kit and the truth is revealed!!! I was so shock and unsure with the result, so I test again with my friend's test kit, and I can't believe it.
        Sal : 1.023 ( already recalibrated)
        Alk : 150 mg/l ( after buffering it for 5 days)
        Mg : 1300
        Tmp : 77.5
        pH : 8.50
        Cal : 200
My calcium is 200!!! I feel so shame of my stupidity right now, feel so sorry to all my stocks which have suffered from my negligence!
       *****speechless and hate myself*****
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2012 at 11:46am
Oh I'm so sorry for this situation.
It can be quickly remedied with the Alk and Ca supplements.
Ca can be raised by 100 ppm per day, so it's time to let go of your fear of causing problems to the tank.
The Alk is in the safe range now but will drop fast as you increase CA. 150 ppm is 8.4 dKH
Alk and Ca are like on a teeter totter that must be tested each day as you are adding one or the other, or both to get them up and keep them up within range
Alk 150-250 ppm
Ca 350-500 ppm

We are here to help for the long run. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2012 at 12:05pm
200ppm Calcium would definitely cause the die-off and bleaching of corals that you have experienced. As Mark said, raise your calcium by about 100ppm daily, which can be done using different calcium buffers (Kalkwasser, 2-part mixes, etc.) and be very careful about maintaining the alkalinity at proper levels, as it will likely drop off quickly as the corals use the new calcium to recover from the damage they've sustained.

Once the calcium and alkalinity are stable at healthy levels, there are a number of ways that will help you to maintain those levels along with water changes. I use a 2-part dosing system which buffers my calcium and alkalinity, and magnesium to some extent.

IMO calcium and alkalinity levels are great at these levels...
Caclium 400-500ppm
Alk (dKH) 7-9 (125-160ppm)

However, every tank is different and these levels may not be optimal for others' tanks. These are just the levels that I keep my tank at, in fact it's more like 450 Ca, 8.7-8.9 dKH for my tank.

Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

We are here to help for the long run. Big smile
Definitely! Always feel free to ask as many questions as you like and get as much information as you can here. Everyone here are usually very friendly, knowledgeable, and eager to help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2012 at 2:04pm
Greeting,
I thought you guys gonna hit me hard with that Calcium level.  In contrast, you folks have encouraged me to keep going on this tough road.  FYI, I just placed order these supplements from Bulkreefsupply.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2012 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by FishnFriendz FishnFriendz wrote:

Greeting,
I thought you guys gonna hit me hard with that Calcium level.  In contrast, you folks have encouraged me to keep going on this tough road.  FYI, I just placed order these supplements from Bulkreefsupply.Tongue

We've all made our fair share of mistakes and while the calcium level was very low, I'm sure plenty of us have done worse (I know I have!). The key is to not give up and be patient while learning through your mistakes. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2012 at 12:51pm
Glad to see that you feel encouraged.Hug This is a great hobby, especially with the excellent help here in the WMAS.

As you may have read in the WMAS Reefkeeping Tips thread, Alk supplement is as easy as Baking Soda. Seriously, it's that easy. Baking Soda is the chemical used in all Alkalinity supplements. It's dirt cheap at the grocery store.

Regarding something said above about Kalkwasser. It should not be used to raise the Calcium. Kalkwasser is a different "animal". It is a very strong chemical and should only be used with caution after careful study. It is a means to partially maintain both Alk and Ca after proper adjustment with appropriate individual Alk supplement and individual Ca supplement.
Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishnFriendz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2012 at 1:27pm
Thanks Mark,
I will keep updating my tank status once it gets back on track.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote naminam22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2012 at 1:09am
Hello Mr. FishnFriendz,

Shame on you for your calcium level. LOL. JK. How are you Mr. Han?
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