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Reef On's new dosing system...

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    Posted: February 10 2012 at 8:13pm
So I stopped by Reef-On a couple weeks back and Jerry was telling me about a new "revolutionary" dosing product line (Alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and coral nutrient).  I definitely noticed that the show tank down there was looking better, and when I went in yesterday, it seemed like some significant growth was going on.  I kinda doubt that the significant improvement was related to these new products, but looking to see if anyone has any experience with this new stuff.   Would love to know for sure that this is the next big thing in reefing, but almost seems to good to be true.  

Edited by Nikolai - February 12 2012 at 12:45am
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He was telling me about yesterday as well but was kind of tight lipped about what it was. If I can't see the ingredients and know what it does for my tank, it is just snake oil as far as I am concerned.
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He mentioned that it was just pure calcium, magnesium, etc.... but they are broken down into smaller "nano" particles or something like that.  Hopefully someone will know more about it........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefOn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:13pm

Originally posted by Ryan
Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

He was telling me about yesterday as well but was kind of tight lipped about what it was. If I can't see the ingredients and know what it does for my tank, it is just snake oil as far as I am concerned.

I love that people are questioning it, and Ryan, we still have not come up with a name for it yet so Snake Oil will definitely be on the list, lol.


Nano Particulate Dosing Products

For all of those reading this, there is a base knowledge that must be learned before I can explain the way these new products work. For those advanced aquarists skip to the **** section for the explanation. For those looking to increase their knowledge please read this first.

We are all trying to grow corals as fast as we can, the faster they grow the more frags we can cut and the more we cut the more we sell and the more we sell the more we can buy. This is an endless cycle, at least, for me.


Base Knowledge of Growing Corals:

We must first understand the makeup of corals. There is Zooxanthellae which is the symbiotic algae that live within the tissue of the coral. The skeletal structure of the coral which is made of Calcium Carbonate. This helps us understand that in order for the coral to grow they need Light to grow the algae as well as Calcium and Carbonate to grow their skeleton. The 'catalyst' for maintaining good levels of Calcium and good levels of Carbonate is Magnesium.

This is where we get the term the 'Big Three' in Reefkeeping and coral growing. Calcium, Alkalinity(Carbonate Hardness/Level) and Magnesium. In order for a coral to grow there needs to be good levels of each of these in the water column. We as Aquarists have come to understand that these 'good' levels are often tested out at 400-500 ppm for Calcium, 8-12dkh for Alkalinity, and 1200-1500 for Magnesium.

There are also a handful of trace elements that we have learned help the corals grow and color up better in captivity. Some of these are Iodide, Vitamin C, and other Vitamins, as well as Carbohydrates, Amino Acids and others.



****This is the exciting part. These new products we have just released are to be used in addition to what you are currently using to replenish used Cal/Alk/Mg whether that be a standard 2 part dosing system or a calcium reactor.

In the past we have dosed Calcium Chloride, Sodium Bicarbonate (Sodium Carbonate) and Magnesium Sulfate/Chloride to increase the levels of these needed elements in the water column. When dosing these there is a Chemical Reaction that must take place in order for the Calcium to release from the Chloride, the Carbonate to release from the Sodium and the Magnesium to release from the Sulfate/Chloride. Any chemical reaction that takes place uses Energy. Usually this Chemical reaction also causes Unwanted changes in the tank like a pH change, or a warming of the water.

With our New Products there is no Chloride, Sodium or Sulfate to release and no chemical reaction that needs to take place in order for it to be accessible by the coral for coral growth. So no Energy is expended by the coral in order to grow....This is possible due to the fact that the Cal/Alk/Mg is broken down to a nano particulate size which can be absorbed by the coral passively. With no 'carrier' like chloride, sulfate or sodium, the mixtures we have are the clean calcium, carbonate (alkalinity) and magnesium in a pure h2o/water.

We recommend dosing these in conjunction with your current dosing regimen and in doing so you will see an EXPLOSION in growth. We recommend dosing 15 ml of each product per 100gallons per day to see the same results as our show tank. These can be dosed into the system within seconds of each other with NONE of the Unwanted changes to pH or water.

Currently we have 4 products that have hit the market in Utah for a test run at the discounted price of $9.99 per 16 ounce bottle, or 4 bottles for $32. These were designed to last a 100 gallon system 1 month at the above mentioned dosing regimen. The available bottles are:

Pure Calcium, Pure Alkalinity, Pure Magnesium and Coral Accelerator(our trace elements blend).

We have come to recognize Two growth rates which we are calling:

Standard Growth Rate, or the rate at which your coral grows through the chemical reactions of actively removing the Calcium, Carbonate and Magnesium from the water column.

Explosive Growth Rate, or the rate at which your coral grows through passively absorbing the needed Calcium, Carbonate and Magnesium from the water column. We have seen that this rate is an Explosion of growth lasting as long as our products are present in the system.

We also mention a term called BASE-LINE, which is the levels that the tank is at before dosing our products.


These products are unlike ANYTHING on the market now, and will cause this Explosive Growth Rate each time you dose. If you would like to test as you dose(which we recommend):

1- Test the tank before add the product. This gives you the BASE-LINE of what the tank is at.

2- Add the Products and wait 10-15 minutes.

3- Test the water.

4- Wait 1-4 hours(depending on coral load).

5- Test again, waiting less and less time every day until you can determine how fast your tank is using the products.


When we started our dosing we were only dosing twice a day, and thus missing out on keeping the corals maintained in the Explosive Growth Rate.

You will find that there is Explosive Growth Rate happening until all the the products you dosed are completely used up. After the products are used up the corals will return to their Standard Growth rate. As you test, you will be able to determine how fast your corals are using up the easily accessible elements, and adjust your dosing to match these time lines in order to MAXIMIZE your growth. Keep in mind that as your corals grow this fast, you will have to increase the amount of your regular dosing regimen in order to keep up the BASE-LINE

We have and continue to document the growth of our corals and will share our results including pictures as we have them available.

Please if you have any questions, feel free to ask and we will do our best to respond as quickly as possible.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nikolai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:15pm
I figured since nobody else knew much about it.... I may as well give it a go.... I bought the kit today and I will let you know how it turns out.  Thanks Jerry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefOn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:22pm
No prob, I am glad we were able to explain it. Post growth pictures here, as well as your dosing regimen, water volume and coral load.





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This is a very exciting product and I'm glad you're posting details Jerry because I can get my thoughts together and ask you the right questions. What do you mean when you say that there normally has to be a chemical reaction for the calcium to release from the chloride? It is my understanding that when calcium chloride is introduced into an H2O solution that the calcium chloride automatically and completely dissociates into 2 separate ions, Ca(2+) and Cl(-) without any assistance at all and that those ions are already completely free to react with anything regardless of any chloride ions in the solution. I understand the same follows for sodium/carbonate ions and magnesium/chloride or sulfate ions?

My other question is, if not by addition of calcium chloride (or any other calcium salt) how is the maker of this product able to get pure calcium ions into a solution and keep it stable without having it react or precipitate with anything else?

Edited by BillyC - February 11 2012 at 11:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:

Originally posted by Ryan
Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

He was telling me about yesterday as well but was kind of tight lipped about what it was. If I can't see the ingredients and know what it does for my tank, it is just snake oil as far as I am concerned.

I love that people are questioning it, and Ryan, we still have not come up with a name for it yet so Snake Oil will definitely be on the list, lol.


Glad I could be an inspiration for the name.

I said I would call it snake oil until I could see the ingredients and know what is going in to my tank. Your explanation answered a lot of my questions and I appreciate the detailed reply.

As consumers in this hobby we are taken by A LOT of different companies that claim things and have no science to back them up (Brightwell Aquatics, Kent, PurpleUp and Marc Weiss come to mind). But don't you dare call any of them out on it and stir the pot.

I see a plethora of additives and supplements that all claim great things but fall short of their claimed mark.

I am not saying this new product won't work or can't work. I simply said I want more details before I start throwing it in my tank.
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So this is available now? If anyone from Provo area is headed that way please let me know I would like to get the four to try as I saw the reaction last week and am curious to try it.
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ptronsp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 1:37am
I agree Jackie.. after hearing Jerry explain the day we were in there together made me want to try it as well. Sounds interested and definitly worth a try.
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Picked up a kit yesterday, myself. I'll let you all know if the snake oil crashed my tank :)
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Originally posted by BillyC BillyC wrote:

It is my understanding that when calcium chloride is introduced into an H2O solution that the calcium chloride automatically and completely dissociates into 2 separate ions. I understand the same follows for sodium/carbonate ions and magnesium/chloride or sulfate ions?
 

For the most part you are correct, in that the chemical reaction to release the chloride starts the second it hits the RO water. This is why it is always recommended to mix your 2 part before adding it to the tank. The next time you add your two part to the tank watch it as it hits the water, you will see that there is still reaction taking place as it mixes into the saltwater.  Often when you mix your products you will see sediment on the bottom of the container. This is known as fall-out, or the elements that were not able to bond.

Definition:   BASE-LINE = the level of Calcium/Alkalinity/Magnesium in your tank before adding any of our products. 

I need to stress that the New Products do not replace your current system of dosing to maintain the BASE-LINE of Cal/Alk/Mg, unless setup and tested continually on a dosing system. Our New Products, when being introduced to the tank are SOOO small that the corals can absorb them Passively, and instantly. This is why when we have tested the show tank 2 hours after dosing, it is back to the BASE-LINE.  The biggest difference is that we are now dealing with Nano Particulates. 

To give you an idea on the size difference, in 5 ml of solution there are MORE nano particulates than there are CELLS in the human body.

This means that we have just released the SMALLEST Calcium/Alkalinity/Magnesium products on the planet, LOLLOL .


Originally posted by BillyC BillyC wrote:

 My other question is, if not by addition of calcium chloride (or any other calcium salt) how is the maker of this product able to get pure calcium ions into a solution and keep it stable without having it react or precipitate with anything else?

This is the Million Dollar/Proprietary question.  What I can say is that the 'Process' of doing it must be done in a lab after passing through a few steps of security clearance. This process has been used and is being used for Food/Human Consumption products, but I don't have authorization to say who or what. We were just EXTREMELY lucky to bring it to the Ornamental Fish and Coral world.




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This is getting good! You can all hate and flame me all you want. The "science" behind this product isn't there. If this formula is truly some breakthrough in science, it would cost a hell of a lot more than $10 a bottle.

This sounds like Chris Brightwell stuff to me. Has anyone researched what Pure Calcium does when added to H2O? I suggest you look it up on Google and even YouTube for a good video.

Let's see what Randy Holmes-Farley has to say.

"I really don't understand what the product is claiming to be. It might just be nanaoparticle calcium carbonate, and even then I'd be surprised if they are using that term correctly. Might just be fine calcium carbonate. And that is a well known product (such as Aragamight or Kent Liquid Reactor) which really doesn't dissolve nor is it available to corals. I don't believe the passive uptake of any nanoparticles is going to be significant.


As others mention, it is certainly not pure magnesium, calcium and what for alkalinity?

It might also be fine particle calcium and magnesium oxide or hydroxide,which would be like adding lime solids. That might work, but isn't anything new and it dissolves in tank water, not staying as
particles."

Who is Randy Homes-Farley? Only the biggest and most well respected chemist in the hobby. Don't take my word for it though. Check out this link.


Sorry guys. I hope you all have great success and you have more frags then you know what to do with. I will come buy them from you but this product can NOT be what is claimed. It would defy the very laws of science.







Edited by Ryan Thompson - February 12 2012 at 9:54am
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Oh man.... Ryan you seem to be assuming a lot.  I didn't read in Randy's response anywhere that he said that it was impossible, just that he may not fully understand it.  It is also possible that there is other chemists outside of REEF CENTRAL that are much more knowledgeable and capable of new things.  Charles H. Duell, the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899, said that "everything that can be invented has been invented."   I personally think that some pretty cool thing have happened in the last 100+ years, even though someone in 1899 someone with respect in his position said  "everything that can be invented has been invented."   Don't know about you Ryan, but I am kind of curious what will happen in the next hundred years.  

P.S.
I didn't see any hate or flame before.... but there you go dude.  I'm not fully sold on this stuff yet, but figure I will give it a go and see what happens.  Can't discredit something unless you can prove it doesn't work, and you don't know enough about it to prove one way or another.  Wouldn't surprise me to see you down there in the next couple days picking some up for yourself.


Originally posted by Ryan Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:



This is getting good! You can all hate and flame me all you want. The "science" behind this product isn't there. If this formula is truly some breakthrough in science, it would cost a hell of a lot more than $10 a bottle.

This sounds like Chris Brightwell stuff to me. Has anyone researched what Pure Calcium does when added to H2O? I suggest you look it up on Google and even YouTube for a good video.

Let's see what Randy Holmes-Farley has to say.

"I really don't understand what the product is claiming to be. It might just be nanaoparticle calcium carbonate, and even then I'd be surprised if they are using that term correctly. Might just be fine calcium carbonate. And that is a well known product (such as Aragamight or Kent Liquid Reactor) which really doesn't dissolve nor is it available to corals. I don't believe the passive uptake of any nanoparticles is going to be significant.


As others mention, it is certainly not pure magnesium, calcium and what for alkalinity?

It might also be fine particle calcium and magnesium oxide or hydroxide,which would be like adding lime solids. That might work, but isn't anything new and it dissolves in tank water, not staying as
particles."

Who is Randy Homes-Farley? Only the biggest and most well respected chemist in the hobby. Don't take my word for it though. Check out this link.


Sorry guys. I hope you all have great success and you have more frags then you know what to do with. I will come buy them from you but this product can NOT be what is claimed. It would defy the very laws of science.





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Apparently Charles Duell didn't actually make that quote.... thanks to Ryan for performing the google search to prove it was a myth.  Either way..... 
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Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:


This means that we have just released the SMALLEST Calcium/Alkalinity/Magnesium products on the planet, LOLLOL .


Originally posted by BillyC BillyC wrote:

 My other question is, if not by addition of calcium chloride (or any other calcium salt) how is the maker of this product able to get pure calcium ions into a solution and keep it stable without having it react or precipitate with anything else?


This is the Million Dollar/Proprietary question.  What I can say is that the 'Process' of doing it must be done in a lab after passing through a few steps of security clearance. This process has been used and is being used for Food/Human Consumption products, but I don't have authorization to say who or what. We were just EXTREMELY lucky to bring it to the Ornamental Fish and Coral world.




It sounds like you are saying that this company discovered a "nano-particle" that's smaller than a calcium/carbonate/magnesium ion? I'm sure that's not what you are claiming because that's impossible so I'm probably just misunderstanding. Last time someone tried to split an ion into something smaller they created the Atomic bomb!

I would be interested in testing the solutions that this company is sending you. If these solutions all test negative for chloride and sodium or any other ionic metal (like the company is claiming they bypassed) then that would support this product. Would you be ok with me testing it?

If this company really discovered this new Nobel-prize worthy technology, I think it's so awesome that they are giving you exclusive rights to it and can afford to have you sell it for $10/bottle!!!

Disclaimer: Jerry, you're awesome and i trust you man. I'm just trying to understand the claims that this company is making when they are sending you this top secret solution. If you'd like me to stop poking, prodding and trying to figure this out please PM me and I'll leave this topic alone. ;)
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I need to clear a few things up. I am no chemist, nor have I tried to mislead anyone in any way. These products work and that is the truth about it. I have just tried to explain it in a way that others can understand. When the phrase, "Pure Calcium, Pure Alkalinity, Pure Magnesium and Coral Accelerant(our trace elements blend)." was used, this is just a description of what we are labeling the bottles with. This is the Product Name we are currently calling it at this point. This does not mean, nor was it ment to be interperated as literal.
 
 
My above description of the products was intended to explain the products, as best I can, after many, many meetings with the chemists and then 'translating' it, while at the same time not breaking our non-disclosure agreement.  After speaking with the chemist I was informed that there will still be small traces of Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate in the solutions due to the source of Calcium/Carbonate/Magnesium.  I would love for people to test them, and encourage the feedback.  I do however ask the question to the expert Chemists out there, If this were just the standard two part, or something like it, how are the levels able to spike, then return to the BASE-LINE so quickly without effecting pH?  Buy some and test it, Tell us what you think.  The more input we have, the better.
 
 
As for those claiming that this product is too cheap to be what it claims, I assure you that there have been Millions invested in the research and development of this technology.  However I was approached by a friend to 'try this'.  It has been almost a year since we first talked about this, and as soon as we tried it in the store, we scrambled to lock in the Exclusivity Agreement.  We have made this first run as a trial in the market, we did however keep the prices down just to cover the costs of production, not development, hence the $9.99 price per bottle, and no lables.  We want this to be something Great for the hobby, so the final retail price for the 16oz bottles will land somewhere between $13-$20 MSRP. This is still not much compared to what you get out of it, but we had a price in mind, and did everything we could to keep it near that price. 
 
 
If you doubt it, or if you don't believe it is possible, try it or don't try it. The reality is, IT WORKS. I have seen it, and you will see it.
 
Ryan posted that he tried all four but thinks it is just the Accelerant that made the difference, try it for a few weeks without using the Accelerant. Post growth pics as well as test results. The stony corals will still grow, and you will still see an increase in color. If you are not growing Stony corals, try just the Accelerant.  If you are going to test it, try to test 10-15 mins after adding it, also try to pinpoint when it is completely used from the system. Post the results.  If it doesn't work, post the results.
 
I am willing and able to ship this to ANYONE who wants to try it. Feel free to contact me via Email at [email protected], so we can workout the payment option and shipping details. We have orders shiping out on Mondays and Thursdays.
 
 


Edited by ReefOn - February 12 2012 at 6:09pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:


 
Ryan posted that he tried all four but thinks it is just the Accelerant that made the difference,
 

I want to clarify this. I have no idea why I had a feeding response out of my corals after using the product. I don't know if it was just one of them or all of them or something else. If I notice a feeding response everyday after dosing, I will conclude that there is something in the supplements that causes this. For now, I don't which one encouraged anything.

Randy suggested that the Coral Accelerant might be vitamins and other elements. I get a feeding response when I dose my tank with Fuel as well. So right now it is coincidental until I have more time.

Jerry, would you please post detailed instructions on how to use this product. Do we dose them all together or wait 10 minutes between each? I think it is 15mL per 100 gallon right? Stuff like that.


Edited by Ryan Thompson - February 12 2012 at 5:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefOn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 6:23pm
What we were doing when we started, and for the first week was 15 ml of each product per 100 gallons per day(we did not use the ACC at that time this was later added and seen to improve coral coloration). We were breaking the 15ml into 2 doses, and dosing all of the products within a 5 minute window. As you saw, the liquids are clear as they go into the tank, they will cause a spike in the cal/alk/mg levels until they are used up by the corals, without effecting pH. 
 
As we watched the levels come back down, and after using a hundred Salifert tests(which we will probably switch to RedSea), we determined that the corals we have in the show tank were using up the amounts we were dosing within a 2 hour period.  Clearly the amount to use is changed based on the Mass of the corals in your tank, not necessarily by the amount of water.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:

What we were doing when we started, and for the first week was 15 ml of each product per 100 gallons per day(we did not use the ACC at that time this was later added and seen to improve coral coloration). We were breaking the 15ml into 2 doses, and dosing all of the products within a 5 minute window. As you saw, the liquids are clear as they go into the tank, they will cause a spike in the cal/alk/mg levels until they are used up by the corals, without effecting pH. 
 
As we watched the levels come back down, and after using a hundred Salifert tests(which we will probably switch to RedSea), we determined that the corals we have in the show tank were using up the amounts we were dosing within a 2 hour period.  Clearly the amount to use is changed based on the Mass of the corals in your tank, not necessarily by the amount of water.

Thanks Jerry
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