QuoteReplyTopic: Raising Ca too fast? Posted: November 22 2006 at 8:42am
Got this from another thread
I nearly lost a birdsnest frag(and lost others) by raising ca to fast,
I was wondering what everyone thinks about this. Is it possible to raise Ca to fast? Does it cause bleaching and rtn? This post came at an ironic time for me, as I recently upped my calcium and lost a couple corals as well.
The rate at which the concentration changes and the level that it actual climbs to are two different things. As long as you are staying under 450 ppm then I don't think the rate of change would affect the tank. But pushing calcium too high, whether quickly or slowly, will result in a crash in both calcium and alkalinity.
I believe that's why knowing the tanks Alk and Ca levels and how to maintain them within range is so very important to the health and survival of all invertebrates, which btw, significantly contributes both directly and indirectly to the health of the vertebrates as well.
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I have always found this very interesting. Everyone always complains they can't keep their calcium levels up. I have always had the opposite problem. My Calcium level has always been high. I have never been able to get my calcium level under 500. Right now it is at 550. My Alk is at 10 dkh and stable there. I realize this is not balanced, and that my Calcium should be quite a bit lower for it to be balanced but, no matter what I do, calcium has never been under 500.
It sure does not seem to hurt anything. I get good growth. But I do wonder if growth would be better even if my calcium and alk were more balanced....
Calcium balanced to alk at oceanic levels is a complete waste of time and means nothing. So don't worry about it. Just keep them within a good range (350-450 ppm Ca and 2.5-3.5 meq/l alk) and you'll be fine. The only issue with high calcium (and normal alk... or vice versa) is you get more abiotic precipitation of CaCO3, which is a waste since it's not going toward coral growth. If you're happy and aren't having any problems keeping those levels where they are then you have no worries.
As usual Jon is exactly right. The importance is in keeping things stable.
As for growth rates, the only study I know involves calcification rates in Stylophora and Porites while increasing calcium (stylophora) and alkalinity (porites) linearly. In the case of calcium, the stylophora growth rate was limited at calcium levels below 360ppm but above 360ppm increase in calcium did nothing to the growth rate. This would lead us to believe that any stable level above 360ppm is more than adequate as far as stylophora is concerned, and nothing more. Similarly, in the case of alkalinity, the Porites growth rate doubled when alkalinity was doubled. This only means that Porites responds favorably to increased alkalinity levels and nothing more.
I would leave the levels as they are, but if you chose to lower them then probably do it very slowly.
Are you dosing Limewater or a 2-part? I assume you are, or the Ca/Alk levels should lower as they are incorporated into CaCO3 in your tank. Another thing to remember is that to form CaCO3, Ca and CO3 are needed in 1:1 ratio. That translates to 20ppm Ca for 1meq/l of alkalinity. In our test kits the 1meq/l drop is more significant compared to the 20ppm drop which is close to the error of most test kits(~10ppm). This gets further skewed when you consider that corals may incorporate Mg and Sr in place off Ca, upto about 5% of the total skeletal weight. This would reduce the ratio from 20ppmCa : 1meq/l Alk to say 16ppm Ca : 1meq/l Alk. The only sink for Ca and Alk is not calcification or abiotic precipitation of pure CaCO3 alone. Coralline uses Mg in its skeleton and so do many other corals. Therefore, a 0.5meq/l drop in alkalinity is significant when compared to the almost no change in Ca (since 10ppm is within the error of test kits). Therefore, if you started at high levels of Ca, then bringing them down may seem difficult simply because its not being used as rapidly as Alk.
It's not only the calcium or alkalinity that effect calcificaiton rates. I think most researchers believe that it's the saturation state of CaCO3, omega, that is of importance. Omega is influenced by calcium, alkalinity, pH, temperature and pressure. Here's a pretty good article that explains it: http://www.co2.ulg.ac.be/pub/gattuso_et_al_1998a.pdf
And here's a graph from that article showing calcification rates as a function of omega:
As you can see, there's a point of diminishing returns at about 300 - 400% saturation. Just for comparison... 3 meq/l alk, 410 ppm Ca and 8.2 pH results in a saturation state of close to 500% for aragonite!
I have a calcium reactor that has been terrific at keeping my ALK stable at 3.5 meq/l and I dose kalk thru a kalk reactor. Although I do get a very slight drop in alk over a period of 4 to 5 weeks, but rather than trying to adjust my reactor for that light drop, I dose washing soda about once a month to keep it up at the 3.5 meq/l level. This usually requires that I dose about 2 teaspoons of washing soda a month also. All of my auto top off water runs thru the sealed Kalk Reactor, and I replace about 4 gallons per day to evaporation. My Magnesium level also stays consistently at the 1450. This system has been like this, stable at those numbers for well over a year now. I suppose if I was to start adding quite a few more hard corals, I might find that my calcium levels would drop to under 500 in a short time.
And yes, I use Oceanic Salt. I have read a few times that it is high in Calcium. But, I think I would rather keep my calcium at the high end of 500 than be fighting all the time to get it higher.
The bottom line is of course that my system is extremely stable at these numbers. I do not have a really high load of hard coral. I have a birdsnest that I got as a hitchhiker actually, started out as a single polyp , really, one single polyp, and it is now about 3" in diameter. I have five different colors of Montipora plating corals, and a really nice colony of Blastos, red with blue centers, that have tripled in size in the last year.
For some reason I feel like discussing this. Please don't take offense. I just want to understand this and help you avoid a problem that could spring up so quick that it would catch you offguard. The information you have given is sending up red flags for me.
This usually requires that I dose about 2 teaspoons of washing soda a month also.
That's a teeny tiny amount. What size is your tank? Also, what kind of growth do you see in Coralline Algae, snails, clams and feather duster calcareous tubes
Magnesium level also stays consistently at the 1450. That's higher than it needs to be.
I suppose if I was to start adding quite a few more hard corals, I might find that my calcium levels would drop to under 500 in a short time. True. In fact, with few stony coral in the tank, I wonder why you even use a Ca reactor!
And yes, I use Oceanic Salt. I have read a few times that it is high in Calcium. But, I think I would rather keep my calcium at the high end of 500 than be fighting all the time to get it higher. There is no need to read about Ca being higher in Oceanic salt mix. Don't take someone's word for it, test it yourself and see that freshly mixed Oceanic salt has somewhere around 550-600 ppm Ca. This amount of Ca would be beneficial if a Ca reactor was not being used for that tank. In fact, from the info provided, I believe that Ca is probably chemically precipitating or accreting out somewhere in the tank. Most likely around sand grains, on impellors and inside walls of pipes. You seem to feel that some hobbyists fight to get Ca up. Honestly, If I were in your situation, I would actually turn off the Ca Reactor to allow Ca to drop into the proper range.
The bottom line is of course that my system is extremely stable at these numbers. That's an interesting opinion. I mean no offense, but see that as an easily challanged assumption.
I do not have a really high load of hard coral. Birdsnest growth... Montipora...tripled in size in the last year. I'm sorry, I don't want to burst your bubble, but that is not rapid growth.
In summary, I believe that Ca and possibly Alkalinity are being wasted in that aquarium. I would turn off the Ca Reactor or at least adjust it down by 1/2, test the levels daily, log the result of bringing Alk Ca, and Mg into range, observe the coral and report the response.
That's my 2 cents
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For some reason I feel like discussing this. Please don't take offense. I just want to understand this and help you avoid a problem that could spring up so quick that it would catch you offguard. The information you have given is sending up red flags for me.
Hi Mark, thank you for your reply, and most certainly am glad to hear what you have to say. Trust me, I am not someone who takes offense when someone tries to help.
This usually requires that I dose about 2 teaspoons of washing soda a month also.
That's a teeny tiny amount. What size is your tank? Also, what kind of growth do you see in Coralline Algae, snails, clams and feather duster calcareous tubes
Yes it is a teeny tiny amount, and I am probably way too anal about these levels. As for your question. I have a Coco-worm whose tube has grown about two inches in the last six months. I do not have any snails except for Collonista Snails. I have hundreds and hundreds of them, they proliferate amazingly to me. My three feather dusters seem to be healthy as far as I know, but they do not really grow much, I have always thought they were just as big as they are going to get. I do have hundreds of small tube worms growing thruout my system. I have no clams. My rock and back glass are covered in Coralline Algae and compared to what I have seen in other systems, the growth is good. I can add a piece of new rock with no Coralline and in a month it no longer looks like a new rock in the tank.
Magnesium level also stays consistently at the 1450. That's higher than it needs to be.
Yes, I know it is higher than it needs to be, but it has always measured at that from the first time I tested it. I do not add any direct magneseum supplements.
I suppose if I was to start adding quite a few more hard corals, I might find that my calcium levels would drop to under 500 in a short time. True. In fact, with few stony coral in the tank, I wonder why you even use a Ca reactor!
The reason I have a CA reactor is very simple actually. First I am new to this hobby. Have only been doing this for three years about.. but I have slowly purchased all of the equipment I will need to put together a large inwall system I have been working on. I figured it would be better to have all the equipment and learn how to use it before I set up a larger inwall system. Before getting the Ca reactor I had pretty much the same numbers when testing, but of course the the dosing and daily maintenance became more of a chore, and rather than spend money on expensive dosing pumps I looked for a good buy on a used Ca Reactor. But you are correct, I certainly do not NEED a Ca Reactor now.
And yes, I use Oceanic Salt. I have read a few times that it is high in Calcium. But, I think I would rather keep my calcium at the high end of 500 than be fighting all the time to get it higher. There is no need to read about Ca being higher in Oceanic salt mix. Don't take someone's word for it, test it yourself and see that freshly mixed Oceanic salt has somewhere around 550-600 ppm Ca. This amount of Ca would be beneficial if a Ca reactor was not being used for that tank. In fact, from the info provided, I believe that Ca is probably chemically precipitating or accreting out somewhere in the tank. Most likely around sand grains, on impellors and inside walls of pipes. You seem to feel that some hobbyists fight to get Ca up. Honestly, If I were in your situation, I would actually turn off the Ca Reactor to allow Ca to drop into the proper range.
I do regular maintenance, cleaning pumps, etc... I have observed no extremely heavy calcium build up in my pumps or pipes. I have not had any precipitation events.
Maybe I have misunderstood what I have read about Calcium reactors. I have been under the impression that Ca Reactors are more for stabilizing Alkalinity than actually adding calcium. However, I have done just what you have said before. When I turn off the Ca Reactor, my Alkalinity starts dropping very fast. It can go from a 10dkh down to less than 7dkh in less than a week if I turn it off and do nothing. The Calcium level never really drops, but the Alkalinity does. Please understand I am not being argumentative here, I just want to understand more. The way I have been going about this since I started was to learn , gather equipment, learn to use it properly, so that when I do start spending money on expensive coral, it does not just die as I have seen happen to many other people before. Up until now, I thought I was doing a pretty good job at it. My Calicum levels do not grow higher than they are, so my demand must be being met. Since calcium levels are not rising, I am not adding more than is being used, right? So if I increase demand by adding more coral, I could allow the calcium level to drop to the 450 range, before adjusting the Ca reactor to cover the increased demand. If there is something wrong with this please tell me where my thinking is off.
The bottom line is of course that my system is extremely stable at these numbers. That's an interesting opinion. I mean no offense, but see that as an easily challanged assumption.
Not sure I understand why you would challenge this. The numbers are stable. They do not change. They may not be corrrect, by the standards , but they are stable. Alk remains at 10 dkh, Calcium remains at 500-550. PH stays constantly at 8.0.
I do not have a really high load of hard coral. Birdsnest growth... Montipora...tripled in size in the last year. I'm sorry, I don't want to burst your bubble, but that is not rapid growth.
In summary, I believe that Ca and possibly Alkalinity are being wasted in that aquarium. I would turn off the Ca Reactor or at least adjust it down by 1/2, test the levels daily, log the result of bringing Alk Ca, and Mg into range, observe the coral and report the response.
I am going to give this a try Mark. But I will tell you this. It is not going to be easy to do. For one thing, my calcium reactor is tuned down almost as low as it can be now. I am not sure if I can decrease it anymore. And the calcium reactor does not actually run 24/7. When the PH drops at night, I have the PH controller shut down the Ca Reactor when PH drops below 8.0 so at night, when the lights go off, the PH drops to 7.9, Ca reactor shuts off, and usally does not come back online until 11 am or so when the PH comes back up to 8.1
Based upon everything I have read, and even with what you have to say, I still feel that the main problem with my system is that my calcium demand is too low, because the system is equipped for and ready to supply a much greater demand for calcium. Which is exactly what I have been trying to do actually, so that when I do add more coral and increase demand, I would not find myself looking for ways to increase calcium and alkalinity because my demand was too high......
LOL, I know that this is opposite from what most people do, and probably seems strange. I have seen many people setup a system, add fish and coral, hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth, and watch it all die a slow death because their system and knowledge was unable to keep them alive. So if my worst problem is that my calcium demand is too low, and my equipment is more than I need at this time, I can probably live with that....
But please Mark, I am not thin skinned, and would be more than glad for you to point out any errors in my understanding of what is going on with Ca, Alk, and Ph in my system. Most important, what is the worst thing that can possibly happen unless I increase demand for calcium and things were to stay as they are right now..
That's my 2 cents
You started off saying "I just want to understand this and help you avoid a problem that could spring up so quick that it would catch you offguard." So I am ready, tell me what problems could spring up on me so quick at this point and catch me off guard. I am listening, but I really have thought I had a pretty good handle on this, so you might have to get a little more detailed for me to understand why you seem to feel I am in a precarious situation here.
have been under the impression that Ca Reactors are more for stabilizing Alkalinity than actually adding calcium.
They actually add an equal amount of each and because of that, they should not be used to try increasing the calcium concentration in the tank (because this would drive the alk too high).
When I turn off the Ca Reactor, my Alkalinity starts dropping very fast. It can go from a 10dkh down to less than 7dkh in less than a week if I turn it off and do nothing. The Calcium level never really drops, but the Alkalinity does.
Reread sshm's reply above for a good explaination of why this can occur.
IMO, you'll have a hard time ever getting your calcium down into the 400s and magnesium down into the 1200 - 1300 ppm range if you're doing regular water changes with Oceanic salt. But again, imo, the only issue with having calcium/alk levels as high as yours is the difficulty in keeping them up. Most people have a hard time doing it. Mark might have a different opinion/experience?
Maybe I have misunderstood what I have read about Calcium reactors. I have been under the impression that Ca Reactors are more for stabilizing Alkalinity than actually adding calcium. However, I have done just what you have said before. When I turn off the Ca Reactor, my Alkalinity starts dropping very fast. It can go from a 10dkh down to less than 7dkh in less than a week if I turn it off and do nothing. The Calcium level never really drops, but the Alkalinity does. Please understand I am not being argumentative here, I just want to understand more. The way I have been going about this since I started was to learn , gather equipment, learn to use it properly, so that when I do start spending money on expensive coral, it does not just die as I have seen happen to many other people before. Up until now, I thought I was doing a pretty good job at it. My Calicum levels do not grow higher than they are, so my demand must be being met. Since calcium levels are not rising, I am not adding more than is being used, right? So if I increase demand by adding more coral, I could allow the calcium level to drop to the 450 range, before adjusting the Ca reactor to cover the increased demand. If there is something wrong with this please tell me where my thinking is off.
EDIT: as usual Jon beat me to it :)
This is easy to explain. As I said before Alk will appear to change faster than Ca. When you turn off your Ca reactor, your Alk drops from 10dKh to 7dKh in less than a week, so lets assume 5 days. This means its dropping from 3.5meq/l to about 2.5meq/l in about 5 days, a drop of about 0.2meq/l a day. However, in the same time frame, your Ca is dropping 20ppm over 5 days which is 4ppm/day. If you are testing daily with a salifert kit, a difference of 0.2meq/l translates to 0.04ml of the KH reagent, which is easy to pick up on the test kit (about 2 drops from the syringe), however, a difference of 4ppm of Ca will not register on the test kit (which has an error of about 10ppm). Therefore, your Alk will appear to drop precipitously while you Ca appears to remain constant over the course of a day or even 5 days. I guess what I'm trying to say is that with a Ca reactor, the CaCO3 will dissolve into its constituent parts in exactly the same ratio as the consituents combine in the tank to form CaCO3. Therefore, when you have dialed in the reactor to match your Alk demand, you have also matched the Ca demand (unless as I explained earlier, you might be slowly building up Ca if Mg and Sr are incorporated in significant amounts into the skeleton). Perhaps this is what is happeningg in your tank. You started off with a high Ca because of the Oceanic salt or whatever. Then you are maintaining the already high level since you have dialed in the CaCO3 to accurately match the Alk demand. I dont think you need to change anythhing, since 500-550ppm Ca and 10dKH (at 10dKH balanced Ca is 561ppm) is not significantly out of whack, its pretty well matched, except that it is not matched to ocean levels. I dont think that matching to ocean levels is as important as keeping the levels balanced and stable. If you should chose to bring it down to ocean levels, i.e. about 450ppm on Ca and its corresponding Alk, then you can test your water change water for Ca and Alk, it should be lower than youur present levels. Then you can calculate the percentage change in Ca and Alk from each water change and bring it down correspondingly.
Sounds like much thought has been put into this. I can't really point to something wrong and I can't explain the chemistry like Jon and Shibaji, but my concern is that the artificially high Ca level may lead to some kind of problem down the road. In my experience no tank is completely stable. All reef aquariums, at one point or another, are balancing on the edge of disaster. The Alk and Ca numbers may be constant, hence the illusion that the tank is stable, but with unusually high Ca, it seems to me that all it would take is the change in one or more of the miriad of common variables and the tank could experience trouble. The trouble might come in the form of an algae or bacterial bloom, bleaching, death or mass precipitation.
I've never seen "mass precipitation" but a little drama sounded fun.
After thinking it over, my only suggestion would be to start using a blend of salt mix and gradually switch to a salt mix which the manufactuer has not skewed off balance.
Edited by Mark Peterson - December 24 2006 at 2:47pm
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Thank you all so much.... this kind of discourse is exactly what helps me...
I see a definite need to do two things...
Increase my demand, and make better use of the Ca Reactor, by adding more coral, which I am not going to do until I complete the 180 gallon in wall setup... hopefully this will be complete by the end of February...
and, change from Oceanic to another salt mix... the only reason I have never done this, because I have always known that Oceanic is known for a high calcium level is because I have read more than one time that changing salt mixes can be problematic...
The one thing I am sure of, is that when I get the 180 setup, I definitely have all of the equipment necessary to run it. The Ca Reactor, Kalk Reactor, and huge skimmer I have were all purchased based on knowing I intended to have a much larger tank in the future...
But thank you all very much, the discussion has increased my understanding quite a bit of what is actually occuring, and actually, from what I now am seeing, my biggest concern might actually be the high Mg levels
When I first started in this hobby, which happened because I had a renter who left a 90 gallon fish only , empty tank, when he moved out in the middle of the night, and thinking hey, I have always wanted to do this, how great to have such a cheap start... LMAO LMAO, the money I have spent since makes my head spin sometimes... LOL
Anyway, when I knew nothing at all, I listened to the advice from the LFS, and was adding all sorts of things in those KENT bottles... at one time, my Calicium level, when I learned what that meant and started doing proper testing was at 1200 LOL talk about scary... but that was a long time ago....
Actually, what I am doing is using an entire room in my basement, and putting this 90g , the 180g, and a 30g all in the wall...the 180 a reef, the 90 fish only aggressive, and the 30 like pipe fish and seahorses, and this wall will become one wall of the den downstairs.... behind the wall will be a 15 x12 room for equipment. Large central sump for all the tanks. This room is right next to the laundry room now, so I will be putting a door from the laundry room to the fish room.. It will have a separate electrical from the rest of the house, and I will be running the chiller outside, plumbed to the evaporator coil inside the fish room. And, being right next to the laundry room, all plumbing will be quite easy also. Hopefully, since I will have the room, I want to also setup a brine shrimp hatching system, and grow my own Phyto too. It is nice when the kids all move out and the house is empty with lots of room to do something like this>>
Of course, this all depends on me winning in court, my wife is trying to have me involuntarily commited.......:) Lucky for me I have gathered enough dirt on her in the last 30 years to probably be able to get her to back off LMAO
My tanks are in the basement now Suzy.... I live in St. George, trust me, I need a chiller... LOL at night when the chiller is off, and the lights are off, my tanks stays at 79, without the chiller they would get to 85 when lights are on.. the chiller keeps it at 80 so I have only a one degress swing day to night... although, I may be able to air condition the fish room only, with a good size window unit separate from the house AC and be able to get by with a much smaller chiller. I have a friend who is doing some cost analysis for me on which way would be more efficient.. Also, my tanks have canopies right now, when the fish room is done, they will not, they will be open with movable lighting on tracks... we shall see... lol
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DaveB wrote:
I've never seen "mass precipitation" but a little drama sounded fun. 
