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refugium good or bad?

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tamortman View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 01 2007 at 2:49pm
i was just in aquatica talking to the owner and said basically said that refugiums are more harmful then good in the long run. He said you just want a sump and that is all he has it on that huge display tank.  Has anyone else heard this? i never have and i currently have a refugium sump and love it. what's the cons?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 3:01pm
I have had and will continue to have a refuge for growing pods and to harvest macro algae as well as a deep sand bed. Having a refugium works well for me and for countless others. Of course there are other methods that work well for others.
 
Mike


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 5:21pm
I have been told that by Shawn also, then again he is the only person that I have met that has had that opinion, I say do what works for you. For me a refuge makes sense in the big picture, but I also run reverse photosynthesis on it to help with ph issues.

Brian 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Corey Price Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 6:43pm
I've always thought that a refugium is a good idea.  I have heard that SPS corals can possibly be negatively affected by the chemical warfare that certain macroalgaes produce, but don't know if it's true
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquatic Evolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 7:42pm
     DO A SEARCH ON CAULERPIN, OR CAULERPICIN AND READ AS MANY ARTICLES AS YOU CAN.  ITS PRETTY BORING STUFF, BUT WELL WORTH READING. HOPEFULLY THIS WILL THROW SOMETHING INTO THE THINK TANK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 10:35pm
I'll check it out. Thanks.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2007 at 11:26pm
It's very hard to argue with success. Shawn has the most beautful display tank in the state.  It also shows you that there are many different ways to run a successful reef.  My 65g tank does not have a refugium, but my 225 does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 12:12am
Shawn's  tank is gorgeous, and there are many, many ways to run a reef tank successfully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 9:02am
I think Dana convinced everyone last night that a refugium does way more good than any possible bad for a reef tank.
Then again I don't have one on my tank.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gateb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 9:56am
Aquatica posted:
"DO A SEARCH ON CAULERPIN, OR CAULERPICIN AND READ AS MANY ARTICLES AS YOU CAN.  ITS PRETTY BORING STUFF, BUT WELL WORTH READING. HOPEFULLY THIS WILL THROW SOMETHING INTO THE THINK TANK. "
 
I think most people use Chaetomorpha in their fuges these days. I  searched for "Chaetomorpha caulerpin" in Google and found that Chaetomorpha does not contain caulerpin. So if you use Chetomorpha in your refugium this is not an issue.
 
Article:
Best Plants and Algae for Refugia - Part II "Vegetable Filters"
By: Anthony Calfo


Edited by gateb - March 02 2007 at 9:58am
120 Gal RR
2 Pan World 100PX return pumps
AquaC EV-180 w\Mag 9
40 + 13 Gal refugia
2 175w Iwasaki Aqua2 MH
4 48" URI Super Actinic VHO
IceCap MH and VHO Ballasts

Ogden, UT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dion Richins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 11:33am
Thumbs%20UpGood info  Mr. Smith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquatic Evolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 12:16pm
     THIS ARTICLE IS SURELY ONE PEOPLE NEED TO READ. (AMONG OTHERS)
BUT I THINK IT WAS MISQUOTED. IT SAYS "It can be cut and pruned aggressively with little or no fear of toxins being released or having vegetative crashes." IT DOES NOT SAY THERE ARE NO TOXINS IN CHAETO. UNLESS I MISSED SOMETHING?  I WILL READ IT AGAIN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquatic Evolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 1:28pm
     LIKE BRIAN WAS SAYING THERE ARE MANY, MANY WAYS OF KEEPING A SUCCESSFULL AQUARIUM.  YOU CAN DEFINETLY HAVE A SUCCESSFULL AQUARIUM WITH A REFUGIUM.  IVE DONE IT FOR MANY YEARS,  BUT SUCCESS IS ALL REALATIVE.  IS THE ABILITY TO KEEP CORAL ALIVE THE DETERMINING FACTOR.  OR THE ABILITY TO MAINTAIN THEIR HEALTH, VIGOR AND COLORATION FOR MANY YEARS DICTATE THIS.  I PREFER THE LATTER.  KEEPING CORAL ALIVE IS EASY!
     I SIMPLY THINK THAT ONE CAN ACCOMPLISH THIS MORE EFFECTIVELY, WITH LESS EFFORT,  LESS OUT OF POCKET EXPENSE AND LESS RISK BY SIMPLY ELIMINATING- REFUGIUMS.   THERE ARE SOO MANY OTHER REASONS AND PEOPLE LIKE ME AS TO WHY WE BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE.  SO WE CAN CONTINUE THIS THREAD IF SOME OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO, AND I WILL SHARE SOME ADDTIONAL INFORMATION.


Edited by Aquatica - March 02 2007 at 1:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gateb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 1:33pm

Did a search for “Chaetomorpha Toxins” and didn’t find anything bad about Chaeto so far. Did find this paper that states that catches of moluscs and fish increased in areas where Chaeto presumably absorbed toxins in a polluted bay:

 

http://www.ifremer.fr/docelec/doc/2005/publication-2131.pdf

 

Consequences to the Ecosystem

The effects of seaweed proliferation and accumulation on

the biotope and the environment are both numerous and varied.

First, the seaweed biomass plays an important role in purifying

the medium by absorbing excess nutrients and by accumulating

some toxins (BRAULT, 1983). A primary function

of excessive macroalgal development appears, therefore, to be

the abatement of pollution in coastal ecosystems. Taking into

consideration the entire cycle of growth and decay of the seaweed,

the Venice Lagoon, for example, acts as an important

denitrifying reactor (SFRISO and MARCOMINI, 1994).

Ulva concentrates several metals from water and is sometimes

used to assess the level of this type of pollutants (MALEA

and HARITONIDIS, 2000).

Associations between macrophytes and marine animals are

often considered to be positive. In some cases, seaweed proliferations

provide a supplementary food source which can

have a favourable effect on the development of herbivores.

Another significant ecological role of excessive growths of algae

is the provision of habitats and refuges against predators.

For instance, LENANTON et al. (1985) noted that an increase

in fish catches followed an increase in the biomass of Cladophora

and Chaetomorpha, while VIRNSTEIN and CARBONARA

(1985) reported high densities of small animals (peracarid

crustaceans, gastropod molluscs, etc.) in Gracilaria drift

beds. These proliferations do, however, pose significant fouling

problems in aquacultural areas.

Moreover, the seaweeds involved in the proliferations appear

not to be very numerous in terms of species, but represent

a stronger proportion of the algal community, with the

growth being selective according to their degree of tolerance

of pollution and to their affinity for the nutrients. The most

sensitive species regress in quantity or disappear in favour

of more tolerant species.

 

So even though Chaeto can harm coastal regions by shading the organisms underneath, it also helps to clean polluted coastal waters. I'll keep reading the search results, but as of now I haven't seen anything about Chaetomorpha being toxic.



Edited by gateb - March 02 2007 at 1:34pm
120 Gal RR
2 Pan World 100PX return pumps
AquaC EV-180 w\Mag 9
40 + 13 Gal refugia
2 175w Iwasaki Aqua2 MH
4 48" URI Super Actinic VHO
IceCap MH and VHO Ballasts

Ogden, UT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 2:13pm
I want to join this discussion because I have a refugium and have been trying to decide for a while if it is really doing much good and if I should remove it.

First I would like to seperate the issues.
I think we need to look at why the refugium is being installed.

1. A low flow area designed to allow macro algea to grow/flourish in order to export nutrients (seems to be the main argument above.)
2. A low flow area to put more DSB to allow for extra denitrification.
3. A place for amphipods/copepods to grow and flourish in order to help fish in main tank that require these foods to survive.
4?? is there more reasons?

I doubt that anyone would consider #3 to be bad (assuming it works over a long period of time in this type of environment)

So the argument so far seems to be for/against low flow areas seperated from the main tank for the sole purpose of nutrient export whether by macro algea, extra DSB, or both.
Also I would like to point out that if your refugium/sump is anything like mine, then it is very neglected (apart from havesting macro algea) and therefore doesn't have the snails/crabs/biodiversity as the main tank has.

I hope this seperation of points will contribute to this discussion instead of just being a pointless post


Edited by Kevin - March 02 2007 at 2:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gateb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 2:32pm
I had my refugium set up in my apartment when I moved my tank here from St. Louis, MO last May. I bought a house and moved my tank there last October and had large outbreaks of Dictyota and cyano after moving the tank twice (no suprise here). This was in spite of large water changes and running a skimmer, Polyfilter, Matrix Carbon and RowaPhos. 
 
About a month ago I had enough of the crud growing in the tank and reluctantly set up my refugium again with a DSB and a small ball of Chaeto.  The Dictyota and cyano are were pretty much gone in the first 2 weeks. So in this case the DSB and Chaeto accomplished what hundreds of dollars in chemical media and equipment couldn't do for me.
 
Oh I forgot to add that I plan on dumping a "Detritivore Kit" into my DSB/Refugium to grow some  more pods, etc when I get my tax return $$. I have 200 lbs of Kaelini and Indonesian rock in the tank, but unfortunately it seems that most of those types of organisms didn't make it through the tank being moved twice. Then again my Mandarin and Scooter Dragonets are fat and happy, so maybe some did survive after all.
 
So points 1,2 and 3 are valid for what I am trying to accomplish.


Edited by gateb - March 02 2007 at 2:46pm
120 Gal RR
2 Pan World 100PX return pumps
AquaC EV-180 w\Mag 9
40 + 13 Gal refugia
2 175w Iwasaki Aqua2 MH
4 48" URI Super Actinic VHO
IceCap MH and VHO Ballasts

Ogden, UT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2007 at 2:36pm
Mr. Calfo's article bookmarked above is and easy and informative read. Some of the points that caught my eye are:
 
"Chaetomorpha is multicellular and, as such, is inherently more stable. It can be cut and pruned aggressively with little or no fear of toxins being released or having vegetative crashes."
 
"illuminate most macroalgae in refugia with at least 1 watt of light per liter of water at depths less than 30 cm"
 
"moderate to strong water flow is necessary; keep a total water flow of at least 20X turnover of the volume of the culturing vessel."
 
"Aquarists with thick masses of Chaetomorpha in their refugiums get a bounty of zooplankton to feed their corals in their display, assuming the refugiums is kept without predators like fishes on the plankton."
 
Mike


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquatic Evolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2007 at 10:49am
AS FOR "PODS"
 
     LET ME SHARE WITH YOU A SHORT STORY.  FOR YEARS I HAVE HAD A PROPOGATION SYSTEM SET UP IN MY BACK ROOM,  AND HAVE GROWN OUT MANY HUNDREDS IF NOT IN THE THOUSANDS OF FRAGS.  ABOUT  6 MONTHS AGO I HAD A FLAGELLATE BLOOM. HAD THEM BEFORE AND WILL AGAIN, HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO GET RID OF IT FAIRLY EASY.  THIS TIME IT DIED OFF OVER NIGHT!  TO MY DISMAY IT KILLED 200 GROWN OUT ACRO FRAGS. (ITS HIGHLY TOXIC)  2 MONTHS PASS BY, EVERYTHING TESTS PERFECT.  SOO I MAKE SOME MORE FRAGS.  THEY DO GREAT INITIALLY,  BUT AFTER A WEEK OR SO THEY THEY BEGIN TO ERODE. (NOT RTN OR STN) LIKE SOMETHING WAS EATING THEM.  BUT THERE WAS NOTHING IN THER TO DO THAT.  COULD IT BE RESIDUAL TOXINS?
     I TESTED EVERYTHING AGAIN, COULDNT FIND ANNYTHING WRONG.  WHAT IS GOING ON?  SYSTEM IS HEALTHY, EVERYTHING ELSE IS DOING WELL (PALYTHOA, ZOO'S).  COPEPODS, AMPHIPODS AND MYSID SHRIMP EVERYWHERE!  THE BOTTOM LOOKED LIKE IT WAS MOVING! I WONDERED IF POSSIBLY THAT THE PODS WERE EATING MY FRAGS?  SO I PUT IN A MANDARIN GOBY...  WEEKS HAVE GONE BY, POPULATIONS OF PODS ARE DOWN AND MY FRAGS ARE NO LONGER ERODING.  SO THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR MYSELF IS- HOW SAFE ARE PODS?  I NEVER THOUGHT IT COULD POSSIBLY BE PODS.  
     JUST SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2007 at 12:10pm
Shawn-
Very interesting info.  I always considered pods to be completely reef safe.  In fact I've never heard otherwise.  Hmmm, I'm going to think more about pods today.  Hearing your viewpoint on these issues is quite beneficial as it certainly provokes thought.
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gahlenfr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2007 at 2:08pm
Take the Mandarin out now and see if your frags begin again to decline.  If so I would attribute it to "something" the goby is eating.  If not, I would say it was a coincidence.
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