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grateful1 
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 Topic: Frag Tank Build Thread
Posted: December 15 2009 at 1:16pm |
Today is an historic day for me--it is the day when I begin my first build thread. Having been an avid reader of the forum for a while, I know that I have a lot to live up to and that my little frag tank is certainly of modest dimensions relative to some of the big display tanks that have been built.
Nonetheless, I am in law school and live in a tiny one-bedroom on the top floor of a creaky old building. Therefore, I have no money and even if I did, I couldn't set up a big tank without fear of collapsing my building. So I have set my aspirations at a realistic level.
To begin, I am going to put the frag tank opposite my 37g reef, pictured here:
When I set up the 37, I didn't know what I was doing. It doesn't have a sump or external plumbing of any kind, so in adding those parts to the frag tank, I will come up against new challenges that I have not faced before.
I picked up the used frag tank from Kellie a few days ago. She had used it for a few years, but it has been taken down and just sitting in her fish room for six months or so. She gave me a killer deal on it, bless her heart, and I was off to the races!
Here it is:
As you can see, it's already drilled and has an overflow. It's acrylic and is 3' wide, 2' deep, and 1' tall (about 44 gallons). The drain is 1 1/2". I think that's what Kellie told me. I measured it, and the diameter of the outside of the pipe is 1 1/2. The diameter of the inside, obviously less. But I think the correct measurement is of the outside. If so, the drain is 1 1/2" and the return is 1".
There is a little crack in the acrylic on the top piece in the tank's front left corner. I don't think it is anything to worry about. The top piece is not so connected to the side pieces that the crack will spread down the side, and the top piece is still sealed to the side piece on either side of the crack so I don't think it will give too much.
My next step was to figure out a stand. I had been over at Aaron Preslar's place last week and he mentioned that he sometimes builds stands, so I called him up and he agreed to build one for me. It's going to be metal and of pretty simple design. As fortune would have it, he also has a sump that he's not using that he's going to let go. So that's one less thing to worry about. I'm not sure yet how it is designed, but I will figure that out when I see it.
So, now that I have the tank, stand, and sump squared away, my next concern is figuring out how they all go together. From what I have read, it seems to me that the key is the return pump. I want a very simple sump and would like to go skimmer-less if that turns out to be doable. I know that Mark Peterson is all about going skimmer-less and I like the "all natural" idea, but I am not sure yet how that will affect the frags. Will they grow better with skimming or without? I'm just not sure.
If it turns out not to matter, I think I will try and go skimmer-less and design a very simple fuge--filter sock, LR, LS, tons of macro, AC, return--something like that.
More on this and other topics to come.
Scott
Edited by grateful1 - December 26 2009 at 2:24pm
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37g reef.
Frag tank in progress.
(801) 403-4006.
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 1:36pm |
Scott- nice to see you making this post. If you frag tank does as well as your 37g you'll be just fine.
Adam
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 1:38pm |
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Awesome! I'm excited to see you set this up!
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Mike Savage
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 3:03pm |
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grateful1
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 5:09pm |
Thanks, guys!
I just got back from Home Depot with some eggcrate. I have been trying to figure out the best positioning for it. I definitely want the shelf edges to be far enough away from the glass (well, acrylic) for the cleaning magnet to fit by. After all, I still want to be able to see the frags. For now, I am thinking I will utilize four square shelves, two deep on each side (2x2).
The basic tension is that I want to design the shelves so that the eggcrate covers the greatest possible surface area, but it also needs to be a workable design. For example, if coraline grows all over every surface I won't be able to see in (this will necessitate leaving room around the edge for the magnet). Also, if I stack the shelves so high that, in order to access the bottom shelves I am forced to take the top shelves out of the water, that doesn't work either (this ruled out stacking the shelves 3 high, as the frags of the third shelf would be graving the surface anyway).
This brings me to my next dilemma. Should I put sand in the tank or leave the substrate bare? I originally thought that I wanted sand in there, just so that inverts would have somewhere to live. I felt it would be a little bit cruel to force them to live in a completely plastic world. The problem is that the sand is going to get nasty because I won't be able to clean it very easily. I could sacrifice the fourth shelf in order to stack all three on one side while I vacuum the sand, but I am not sure I want to sacrifice another shelf.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Sand or no sand? Since there will be no fish in there, should I just leave out inverts altogether?
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37g reef.
Frag tank in progress.
(801) 403-4006.
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 5:35pm |
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If you're worried about viewing the frag tank then I'd say make it look as natural as possible. If it's going to be sitting back in a fish room that no one sees then I would say just do what's easiest and most efficient.
I personally like the idea of a realistic frag tank. What you could do is take your egg crate and bury it in the sand, then when you want to place some plugs you can just take a turkey baster and clear out a hole in your egg crate and place it. That way you don't have to worry about coraline, your inverts can clean up any nasty algae off of your plugs.
For your higher light higher flow frags you can take some live rock and drill it with a concrete drill bit and place plugs in your live rock so that they are closer to your lights and have better flow.
Overall the aesthetics will be more pleasing and you'll have a more natural looking frag tank. You can also place inverts and fish with no probs.
If you want just a utilitarian, hide it in the basement, then you can just have it be a plastic wonderland with some lights. I still think you'll want a cleaning crew of some sort to help with algae though.
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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bfessler
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Posted: December 15 2009 at 5:44pm |
Personally I like a sand bottom but that's just a matter of preference in your case as you have a sump and mine is sumpless. I never vacuum the sand. I use the turkey baster method of cleaning the sand. Just fill a turkey baster and blast the sand. This puts all the good stuff in the sand into the water where the corals can feast. I usually do 1/4 of the sand each week. The water gets really cloudy but clears up in about an hour and the corals are happy as can be.
As for shelves. You don't really want shelves stacked to many layers deep. The problem is that the eggcrate, corals and plugs on the upper shelves shade the lower shelves. This can be good for low light or non photosynthetic corals but most appreciate more light.
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Burt
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grateful1
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:59pm |
I have been thinking about the sand/no sand decision. No conclusions yet, though I am leaning one way.
I have been thinking more about flow. I want to have tons of flow in there, at least 30x. I have been trying to decide what the best method is for getting that flow.
1. A big return pump. A 1200 GPH return pump would give me about 27x, pretty close to where I want to be. Of course, if the pump fails, then I have zero flow and everything dies. So even with a 1200 GPH return pump, I think I would still put in a separate powerhead in the tank proper.
2. A 950 GPH pump and a larger powerhead(s) in the tank. 950 itself would be 21x, and if I also added a Koralia 2 (600 GPH) that would give me a total of 1550 and 35x flow.
I am leaning toward option 2. It seems more balanced. Also, while I want good flow in the fuge, I don't want water flying through there so fast that it doesn't have a chance to reap the benefits of being down there. Also, I'm not sure how fast the overflow can drain, and going with a more moderately sized pump will be less likely to test it.
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37g reef.
Frag tank in progress.
(801) 403-4006.
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 1:20pm |
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I think your 2nd option sounds better for what you want to do. I have a big pump on my tank and my overflow can't handle it, so I've had to back it off and use powerheads.
You could also compartmentalize your fuge so that you can T off your return flow and put a ball valve on it to regulate how much flow you get into your fuge, the other T can go to where you have a skimmer or return pump. Which can handle the higher flow. Just a thought.
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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bfessler
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 3:50pm |
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In my Frag tank I like to shoot for 10X flow through the filter boxes and the rest made up with power heads. I think if i was running a sump I would likely do the same so with a 50 gallon tank you would only need 500 GPH through the sump. Accounting for the head pressure the 950 GPH pump you suggested would be great. The nice thing about using power heads for flow in the tank is you can couple them with a controller to get periodic changes in the direction of flow, also considerable savings on your energy bill.
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Burt
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I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping.
[email protected]
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 3:52pm |
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One thing I do that is cheap for the powerheads is that I have them each on a little timer from walmart. The ones you plug your lamps into while you are away. Cost me $4 and 2 of them go for 30 min then it switches to the other one. It's a cheaper way to go until you can buy a controller.
Edited by Luckedout - December 16 2009 at 4:01pm
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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bfessler
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 3:57pm |
That's a great Idea. I think if I was doing that I would run each for 40 minutes and let them overlap for 5 minutes just to make sure there aren't any dead times if the adjustment gets off a little. Come to think of it a couple minutes of dead time really wouldn't matter much since you have the return from the sump going.
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Burt
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I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping.
[email protected]
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vadryn
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 5:59pm |
Suggestions and Observations:
Fixing that little crack is simplicity itself. I had a couple of nervouse cracks in the bottom of my 225 acrylic where the central overflow was. A local glass place gave my a syringe full of weld-on that was plenty to weld the cracks back to invisible. Acrylic is wonderful that way.
Some type of substrate in the frag tank seems like a good idea as I always see people using their frag tank for other things. (hospital tank, holding tank for snails and crabs etc) Your choice, but I would be temped to at least do a thin layer of aragonite gravel. A softie frag that is put in the gravel will attach to the gravel - which you can then glue to larger rocks. Unless others know gluing secrets for soft corals I haven't seen yet, this would make it worthwhile in itself.
I forget the name for it, but there is a type of circulation that gets all your water moving in the same direction which approximates the real ocean much better than most reef tanks. Frag tanks lend themselves to this setup - dang, what is that type of flow called? Help? Anyway, you still change the direction of flow at intervals (like the tide), but you get all the water going in one direction for a while.
Enjoy the project!
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 16 2009 at 7:37pm |
The shallow build of a frag tank is for two reasons, ease of working with the frags without having to dive into the tank and having the frags close enough to the lights to grow at maximum rate.
Eggcrate is a hassle for several reasons.
- tiny frags that release from their mount fall through
- it's a lot of trouble to retrieve anything from under the eggcrate or to work in the sand to feed the coral with detritus
- Algae grows more easily on the eggcrate and snails cannot get onto it nor easily get into the spaces in the grid.
- we have discovered that eggcrate leaches PO4 further exacerbating the algae dilema.
On the side of sand beds and having frags grow on the sand:
- LS is a marvelous feeder of coral, from detritus to live invertebrate larvae
- Sand can take any size and shape of frag mount, from tall plugs to pieces of rock
- Frags on the sand can easily catch the food created by the sand bed
- Frags on the sand are totally accessible to snails and hermits which, if there are sufficient numbers, keeps them completely algae free.
Speaking of rock, I always mounted my frags on small LBTR. It looks 100x better and can be placed anywhere without looking like a plug. LBTR is free and one large rock can be broken into many pieces or you can find millions of small LBTR out there. I collect small pieces on every collection trip. Before I moved to St. George 3 years ago, I was growing and selling decent size frags for an average $10 each and making $400/month 
It may look messy, it's 2'x3' and frags were pretty close together. Also made good use of the Poormans wavemaker to create alternating linear flow for maximum symetrical growth. The round plastic object floating at the right side is a plastic pie plate or lid of clear plastic for viewing coral like a glass bottom boat.
Edited by Mark Peterson - December 16 2009 at 8:02pm
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Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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vadryn
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Posted: December 17 2009 at 3:32pm |
Sure - trust Mark to take something like this and make it sound totally cool, fun and easy to do.. 
Now I have to figure out how to setup a frag tank in my house. Thanks Mark!  |
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grateful1
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Posted: December 18 2009 at 1:43pm |
I picked up a cheapish return pump last night, a ViaAqua 3300. At four feet, it will be pushing between 600 and 650 GPH, 13 or 14x the total tank volume. I also picked up some hose for the drain and the return, and am excited to get the stand and sump so that I can set it all up!
I also decided that I would keep track of all my frag tank related-expenses. I would like to see just how low I can keep the costs, and also how long it will take me to break even selling frags. I'm currently at $142, but I think that after paying Aaron for the tank and the sump, I'll be near $300. I'm not sure whether or not that's good.
Lighting is the last major concern. PCs or T-5s? T-5s or MHs? Ginger or MaryAnne? Such questions! I have read and read and still have not come to any definite conclusions. I found an interesting journal article somewhere that made an excellent case for any lights at the 6700K temperature, arguing that corals grow quickest under lights that best approximate the sun. However, I have also read things that said that while the corals may grow quickly under 6700K, the color will not be as vibrant as it would be under a higher temperature bulb. What I'd like to do is find (or buy, if they're not too expensive) a PAR meter and go out and measure a bunch of systems. I have an idea of what I would like to do already, but I think it would be helpful to see which lighting setups actually deliver.
Even if it's just for posterity, my current thinking is either a combo fixture or a retrofit of some kind which combines a 6700K MH of around 150 or 175 watts (for the quick growing) with a few 10k or 14k T-5s (for color).
I'll get some more pictures up as soon as the stand gets here.
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37g reef.
Frag tank in progress.
(801) 403-4006.
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 18 2009 at 3:19pm |
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I'd say throw in a couple T5's and see what happens. you can probably buy some used off of someone here on the forum. If they don't get the growth you'd like, then you can sell them and buy something else.
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Mike Savage
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Posted: December 18 2009 at 3:20pm |
Are you still needing a stand?
If so then I have one that looks like a work bench. It has 4"X4" legs, 2"X4" framing around the top and 1/2" plywood surface. It was the original stand for my 120 gallon. If you are interested then give me a call. You can have it for free to help keep down the cost (and to get it out of the basement!)
Mike
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Mike Savage
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Posted: December 18 2009 at 3:21pm |
Oh, yeah. It is 30" tall and the surface is 2' X 4'
Mike
Edited by Mike Savage - December 18 2009 at 3:21pm
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grateful1
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Posted: December 18 2009 at 4:28pm |
Mike,
Thanks! I don't think I will need your stand. Aaron Preslar (not sure what his handle is) is building a stand for me and I think he's almost done. If something crazy happens though, and it doesn't work out, I'll surely let you know.
Thanks!
Also, as an update to the thread, I have been looking into lapidary saws. Somebody posted a video on the forum a few days ago that was very interesting. After I post this, I will take a look around and see if I can find it again.
Anyway, it was a video of a guy doing a fragging demonstration. He used two different saws, the first of which was a standard tile-cutting saw, which he used to cut rock and tile to make bases for his frags. The second was a lapidary saw, a saw used primarily to cut precious stones and that kind of thing. The blade is super thin and in the video there was one part where he was able to cut a 1 1/2" frag of porites into 13 separate pieces without using clamps or anything--just holding the frag with his fingers. He also said that because the cuts were so clean, the coral bounced back and recovered very quickly.
Just something I've been thinking about. I'll try and find the link to that video.
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37g reef.
Frag tank in progress.
(801) 403-4006.
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