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Dion Richins 
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 Posted: April 04 2008 at 2:21pm |
There is no comparison Corey! Macs SUCK!!!
Does that help?
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GARFVolunteer
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 3:00pm |
 chris.rogers wrote:
| I do not expect the DSB to last for years like a plenum will. Unlike a plenum I can syphon out all or a portion of a DSB, completely rinse the sand, as needed, and put it back in. This would effectively make a DSB last for years??? |
I don't know, would it? What prevents you from doing the same with a plenum?
If you like the look of white sand, why does a plenum not let you have white sand? |
If properly set up and maintained a plenum might last forever. There is no need to syphon it out since it does not clog up and eventually fail like DSBs tend to do.
I like the looks of white sand. however the coarse sand needed in the plenum does not maintain the bright white look nearly as easy as the sugar sized sand used in DSBs.
Thanks,
Scott
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President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
A fair and biased reef hobbyist
"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
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chris.rogers
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 3:19pm |
Scott: Oh. 
Scott again: I'm still confused as to why you said you'd put a DSB in the main tank-- especially given that you think they'll clog up and eventually fail.
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Corey: I'm actually pretty glad that this seems relatively drama free. Nothing wrong with trying out your ideas to make sure they're worth the bandwidth they take up, eh?
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| I agree with Jake. I also personally like a SSB, shaken, not stirred. |
 Nice.
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The key issue that's driving me to consider a plenum is this: Do DSBs (or other types of substrates) fail after multiple years of use?
Can anyone say?
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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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jfinch
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 4:56pm |
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I think it's all bull**** (no offense to either Carlos or Scott). A plenumn'd tank is no less prone to failure then a DSB'd tank. The reason you hear more about dsb tanks crashing is because there are more dsb tanks out there. This plenum v. dsb topic always seems more like a religous discussion then anything every time it comes up...
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jfinch
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 5:03pm |
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But, in all honesty, I think I'll put a plenum in my next tank. Maybe I'll see the light.
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chris.rogers
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 6:20pm |
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Jon,
Why do you think it's a crock? Back it up with data, even theoretical.
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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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chris.rogers
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 6:36pm |
I just went on a walk and re-read that post. It sounds mean. Sorry.  Read it innocently sounding, and that's how I wrote it.
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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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Corey Price
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 6:39pm |
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Another engineer... You know, the whole topic seems like another conversation in our office, just different topic.
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jfinch
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 7:29pm |
Chris, nothing at all mean about your post, short and succinct is a lost art. Which part of my opinion are wishing facts on? A plenumn'd tank is no less prone to failure then a DSB'd tank.A plenum is nothing more then a sheet of plastic sitting at the bottom of a sand bed. The sand bed would behave the same if the sheet of plastic were removed. The only real data I have is the work of Toonen (referenced earlier in this thread). His work was the work of a scientist, not joe blow hobbyist. And he saw no benefit to a plenumn. I would really like to read that article Carlos reference and I stopped by Petsmart in AF about an hour ago to get it and it wasn't there. That magazine now has a longnose hawkfish on the cover. The reason you hear more about dsb tanks crashing is because there are more dsb tanks out there.I always make up all my stats right on the spot . This would be a good poll question. I'll wager that non-plenumed tank's outnumber plenumed tanks at least 5 to 1. I probably know 50 or people with reef tanks and I can count the number of plenums in that group on one hand. Odds are (see I'm "making" stats here) that 1 out of 10 hobbyists are going to experience a tank crash and it's human nature to blame someone else rather then their own poor husbandry habits so the scape goat becomes the sand bed. This plenum v. dsb topic always seems more like a religous discussion then anything every time it comes up...I hate arguments without facts. And I really hate discussing religion, politics, global warming, what's on the bottom of my reef tank, etc...
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GARFVolunteer
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:48pm |
chris.rogers wrote:
Scott: Oh.
Scott again: I'm still confused as to why you said you'd put a DSB in the main tank-- especially given that you think they'll clog up and eventually fail. |
Chris, the DSB is for aesthetic reasons only. Monica likes the pristine white that you get with the sugar sized sand. The coarse sand that plenums are made of is not as atractive. I do not have any worries about the the DSB failing because over a 5 year period of time it will be replaced 2 or 3 times. I will not give it a chance to fail.
My current tank has been set up for about 2 years and the sand in the display has already been removed and cleaned once and put back in. Like I said it is there mainly for looks the fact that is also filters is a side benefit.
Thanks,
Scott
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President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
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"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
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GARFVolunteer
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 11:00pm |
jfinch wrote:
I think it's all bull**** (no offense to either Carlos or Scott). A plenumn'd tank is no less prone to failure then a DSB'd tank. The reason you hear more about dsb tanks crashing is because there are more dsb tanks out there. This plenum v. dsb topic always seems more like a religous discussion then anything every time it comes up... |
Like I said earlier Jon, it could easily be the MH and not the DSB that made the tanks crash  . Plenums have been around a lot longer than DSB but I still do not know of a single properly set up and maintained plenum that has failed.
Dr Jaubert, the founder of the plenum has a tank going on 22 years old that is still up and running. Has not had a water change since 1998. Local tanks I know of are 17, 14, 13, 13, 13, 12, 11, 10, and 10 years old. 3 of them have MH so maybe that throws out that theory. 
I am certain that a DSB maintained my way would last as long as a plenum but I doubt many would follow that method.
Thanks,
Scott
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President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
A fair and biased reef hobbyist
"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
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jfinch
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 11:53pm |
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Scott, it sounds like you feel the fine sugar sized sand is not a good choice for a plenum. Do you follow Garf's instructions? Couple inches of Caribseafloor special, screen, then another inch or two of more caribsea?
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GARFVolunteer
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Posted: April 05 2008 at 12:26am |
Jon,
Sugar sized sand is not used in a properly set up plenum. The substrate grain size should be 1 to 5 mm in diameter. If sugar sized sand is used, the plenum frame/void under the substrate is a waste of space and you basically have a DSB. If you mix sugar sized sand along with a coarser substrate you have a pile of sand that basically wastes space. I made the mistake once of dumping a bag of Aragomax sand over a plenum. 6 months later I was tearing the tank apart to sift out the fine sand because the tank was crashing. The minute I dumped in the sand the plenum was no longer "properly set up"
I basically follow GARF's instructions. I usually use a combination of Florida crushed coral SeaFlor special grade. There use to be a local store that sold the sand in bulk and I used that for years. The one thing I differ from GARF is I will vacuum the top inch or so of sand every month or so. GARF's tanks are usually so crowded that the vacuum can not reach the bottom...
Thanks,
Scott
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President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
A fair and biased reef hobbyist
"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
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MadReefer
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Posted: April 05 2008 at 1:02am |
GARFVolunteer wrote:
Jon,
Sugar sized sand is not used in a properly set up plenum. |
If this was the case, couldn't you use less sand to get the setup you want? Isn't it all about the flow through the sand?
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chris.rogers
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Posted: April 05 2008 at 12:02pm |
Jon: Good points. Though I, for one, think you're in danger of lighting off a firecracker there with politics, religion, and global warming references.  My biggest beef with Toonen was the length of the experiment. It wasn't 5 years in the making, you know? Corey: Yes it does sound like a work conversation... Scott: Why do you think the sugar fine sand causes problems?
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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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GARFVolunteer
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Posted: April 05 2008 at 8:00pm |
chris.rogers wrote:
Scott: Why do you think the sugar fine sand causes problems?
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Plenums were never designed to use sugar sized sand. It is kind of like running a gas engine with diesel in the tank. It will work for a while but never really good and will eventually fail.
MadReefer wrote:
If this was the case, couldn't you use less sand to get the setup you want? Isn't it all about the flow through the sand? |
It is all about the flow but the flow for a DSB and plenum
DSBs require a lot of fauna to function. Sugar sized sand is ideal as the fauna can thrive, reproduce and move the sand around.
Plenums will work with and without the fauna. The substrate is too large for much of the fauna to move around. The fauna can be there they just play a much smaller part in the function of a plenum system.
A properly set up plenum will have 4 inches +/- 1/2" of 1 to 5 mm diameter substrate. Less than 3-1/2" or greater than 4-1/2" starts causing undesirable effects.
Thanks,
Scott
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President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
A fair and biased reef hobbyist
"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
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BobC63
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Posted: April 08 2008 at 5:27pm |
Ok I think I a m beginning to figure it out... when a few posted how "ugly" a plenumed sandbed was, they were referring to the look of the sandbed in terms of the grain size of the sand...  for a minute I was expecting someone to post a picture of a "proper" plenum showing eggcrate sticking out of the sand, or screen on top of the entire sandbed, or something crazy like that
FWIW, I have tried using a thin (like 1/2") layer of sugar - grained sand at the top of my plenumed bed - for "looks" - and although I didn't find it hampered the plenums ability to function tremendously, it didn't do much for aesthetics, either; as invariably, it just ends up getting "stirred into" the rest of that top layer of sand by the fishes crabs, whatever.
I do agree w/ Scott that you would not use sugar-grained sand for an entire plenumed bed as the flow rate through sand that small is too low to allow the plenum to function.
Generally - at least since moving out west - I finds the Utah oolitic to be a good compromise between aesthetics and function as far as a plenum is concerned... my 125 has the caorser aragonite on the bottom (2.5" deep) layer, with Utah oolitic the top 2" layer. The 225 I am trying out Utah oolitic for both layers (still with the screen in between). I will - naturally - keep all posted as to how it works out; though I believe the Utah sand will do just fine - IMO anyway
Edited by carlso63 - April 08 2008 at 5:30pm
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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