| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
jonafriendj 
Guest
Joined: October 01 2007
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: LBTR vs. Copper vs. LR
Posted: October 13 2007 at 12:53am |
First, I have to say.. in a hobby where you hear something different from every person you talk to, how are you supposed to make any decisions!
I have been reading some of the old posts on the LBTR and it sounds like quiet a tempting idea. I really don't want to spend $700 on rock I can get for free.
But, I have heard so many conflicting things. Hopefully these qestions haven't already been answered in previous posts.
1st - I was told that it could take up to 2 years for your rock to become 'live' if you didn't use LFS 'ocean' live rock. And even then it wouldn't have all the right creatures. You'd be missing out on the bacteria, worms, corals e.t.c That kindof makes sense. Does anyone have any facts on this other than just opinions, maybe we don't even need live rock at all. Maybe it just needs to be pourous rock?
2nd - It sounds like everyone is getting their LBTR from pretty close to where the biggest copper mine (I think) in the world is. That sounds like a bad idea. For sure you can powerwash the dirt etc off a rock, put you can't really powerwash the copper out of it. Also, along these lines.. if you used the powerwasher at the car wash, wouln't you have a pretty good chance of getting soap from the wash line on your rock? That doesn't seem like it'd be good either.
I know from previous post that LBTR works for people and their tanks have been up for years. I would love to save some money and go the dig up my own rocks route, just need to cover my bases!
|
|
Pleasant Grove
|
 |
Dion Richins
Presidency
Joined: April 03 2005
Location: Farmington
Status: Offline
Points: 11664
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 1:19am |
1- you've been talking to too many fish stores.
2- we collect from The island and farther west. Not at the Copper mine.
I use about a 80/20 mix. I also use almost 100% Utah sand with a few cups of sand from several others tanks, This seeds the sand with all the bugs,worms and bacteria that is needed.
My Utah rock was just alive and covered in Coraline with in six months. Rock is alive as fast as bacteria builds up. This will depend on the biological load that is present.
Back to #1. There are a couple of stores in the area that will insist that Utah rock is the WORST thing that you can use. They would rather you use there live rock.$$$$ One store comes to mind in particular has a very bad reputation of doing this.( And other things.)
To my knowledge. NO ONE has ever had a tank crash, or go bad from Using Utah Rock. Just a lot of rumors designed to keep you buying there rock
|
|
|
|
bannshy
Guest
Joined: November 05 2006
Location: West Valley
Status: Offline
Points: 885
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 1:21am |
when you use the local oolitic sand or the LBTR you will be starting without any basic irganizisms but a cup full of sand from a established tank will seed thoose organizisms very quickly. The same goes for the rock if you add a few pieces of live rock it really doesn't take very long for the base rock to become alive.
I got a frog spawn from a member early on before that I never had any Brittle Stars in my tank I remeber when i went to put it in my tank I noticed one on one of the branches. with in four monthes they were everywhere there legs were stick out of every rock I could see.
|
|
jonafriendj
Guest
Joined: October 01 2007
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 1:33am |
 Holdencraft 33 wrote:
My Utah rock was just alive and covered in Coraline with in six months. Rock is alive as fast as bacteria builds up. This will depend on the biological load that is present. |
So back to my previous ramblings... Does this mean you could use anything porous as live rock? Is live rock so important because of the surface area for bacteria, or because of the chemical makeup of the rock?
P.S. I haven't talked to any of the LFSs about Utah Rock *Pats self on back*  |
|
Pleasant Grove
|
|
Dion Richins
Presidency
Joined: April 03 2005
Location: Farmington
Status: Offline
Points: 11664
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 2:10am |
So back to my previous ramblings... Does this mean you could use anything porous as live rock? Is live rock so important because of the surface area for bacteria, or because of the chemical makeup of the rock?
P.S. I haven't talked to any of the LFSs about Utah Rock *Pats self on back*
Utah Rock is a calcium/algae based rock. It is not only porous but beneficial for your tank. Volcanic rock/lace rock is riddled with heavy metals that are problematic is a salt water environment.
Live rock is only live because of the surface area being colonized by bacteria. Your sand is live, Your glass, Your plumbing pipes and so on and so on.
Utah Rock is only one of several things that the lfs's wish we didn't use.(takes away from there sales) I understand there point but as with everything else in this Hobie there is a Tendency to be very costly. I'm all for being frugal where I can.
|
|
|
|
ReefBones
Guest
Joined: January 14 2006
Location: Magna, Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 2617
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 11:27am |
Holdencraft 33 wrote:
1- you've been talking to too many fish stores.
2- we collect from The island and farther west. Not at the Copper mine.
I use about a 80/20 mix. I also use almost 100% Utah sand with a few cups of sand from several others tanks, This seeds the sand with all the bugs,worms and bacteria that is needed.
My Utah rock was just alive and covered in Coraline with in six months. Rock is alive as fast as bacteria builds up. This will depend on the biological load that is present.
Back to #1. There are a couple of stores in the area that will insist that Utah rock is the WORST thing that you can use. They would rather you use there live rock.$$$$ One store comes to mind in particular has a very bad reputation of doing this.( And other things.)
To my knowledge. NO ONE has ever had a tank crash, or go bad from Using Utah Rock. Just a lot of rumors designed to keep you buying there rock |
I agree with everything Dion just stated ... Utah LBTR is good to use in your tank .. you do need to power wash it to get the "Bad" stuff off .. but its not hard to do ...
I started a tank that ran for almost a year using 90% Utah LBTR and 10% live rock .. I had all the little critters that you get in store bought live rock ... and it did not take long before it was "Live" ...
Any way you look at it you will be buying live rock from somewhere .. you do have to "Seed" the LBTR .. but after a few months you will not be able to tell the difference between the live rock and the LBTR ...
I started my main display with 50% dead rock and 50% live rock .. the dead rock is not LBTR though .. but it was dead rock (bone white reef rock... basically the same thing but its been cleaned and it was at one time Fiji live rock) .. and have had no problems ..
Edited by thebutler4 - October 13 2007 at 11:44am
|
|
140 gallon Reef
65 gallon Reef
55 gallon Aggressive
www.thesalttank.com
801-865-6074
"encourage other divers and sea enthusiasts to take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but bubbles"
|
|
trunks
Guest
Joined: June 10 2007
Location: Holladay
Status: Offline
Points: 204
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 11:33am |
I did some research before I used LBTR. We are not the only ones aquaculturing live rock. This company does not specify where/what their rock is (trade secret?), but they commercially farm land based rock and then culture it in the open ocean: http://saltaquarium.about.com/bltbsrock.htmhttp://tbsaltwater.com/
|
|
ReefBones
Guest
Joined: January 14 2006
Location: Magna, Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 2617
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 11:41am |
|
Be aware that live rock from Florida (cultured or not) can have mantis shrimp in it. some like them .. most consider them a pest.
Edited by thebutler4 - October 13 2007 at 11:45am
|
|
140 gallon Reef
65 gallon Reef
55 gallon Aggressive
www.thesalttank.com
801-865-6074
"encourage other divers and sea enthusiasts to take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but bubbles"
|
|
Will Spencer
Admin Group
Joined: September 04 2003
Location: West Jordan
Status: Offline
Points: 6799
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 12:07pm |
As Dion stated any pourous rock will allow for increased surface area to colonize bacteria, but the major difference between LBTR and Volcanic rock is the chemical makeup of the rock. Volcanic rock tends to leach phosphates and other unwanted substances into the tank. LBTR is made up of substantially the same stuff as Live Rock from the ocean.
Jon, our "Club Chemist" has done studies on some of what he collected and found that the makeup is mostly Araganite, (just like the stuff from the ocean). He has also spoken with geologists at the "U" who have studied this rock and had the same findings.
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 12:27pm |
I didn't read all the posts above... but here is my take
Utah rock- will never be as good as live rock. It is just a bacteria house, might as well use legos. On the other hand, my tank is probably 80% utah rock. As far as the nitrogen cycle goes, it works as great as anything else.
Live rock- unfortunately the live rock of today sucks. I'm terribly disappointed in the quality of live rock we now find. It is basically utah rock with coraline algae.
However.... quality live rock is still miles ahead of anything else. I'll be setting up a new tank in a couple months using only quality live rock. I'm excited to get photos and to show people what live rock is really suppose to look like.
In the end you need to ask yourself this... why do you want rock? Answer that question first and then we can help you decide what kind of rock to buy.
Adam
|
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|
jonafriendj
Guest
Joined: October 01 2007
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 12:31pm |
Cool video on the http://tbsaltwater.com/ trunks! They did put their rock in the ocean for it to become live rock, but maybe that had something to do with the fact that there was 3 million lbs.  I think everyone has me convinced, is anyone planning a trip anytime soon? [edit] I aggree with you too Adam, I still think if you could get ahold of some quality live rock, you'd be safer than home grown aquacultured rock. I do want to get some LBTR for sure though.
Edited by jonafriendj - October 13 2007 at 12:35pm
|
|
Pleasant Grove
|
|
EagleEyez5
Guest
Joined: June 02 2007
Location: @MarineAquatics
Status: Offline
Points: 1993
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 3:13pm |
|
One difference.....
I recently cut a peice of Live Rock in half.....when I did this, I found quite a few scallops and other live things buried in the center....the 'rock' had grown over the animals......I don't know what these deeply buried animals did for the tank, but this is one thing that you will never find in LBTR.....
I will be adding only Utah rock to my tanks from now on....after spending hundreds on live rock from LFS before finding this site...
|
 WMAS PAID SPONSOR
|
|
taylorwaldron
Guest
Joined: February 13 2006
Location: Kearns
Status: Offline
Points: 647
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 3:43pm |
EagleEyez5 wrote:
One difference.....
I recently cut a peice of Live Rock in half.....when I did this, I found quite a few scallops and other live things buried in the center....the 'rock' had grown over the animals......I don't know what these deeply buried animals did for the tank, but this is one thing that you will never find in LBTR.....
.. |
something along these lines.... i had a huge ammonia and bacteria spike last here, ammonia was really high cyano was everywhere. I noticed all my crabs working frantically one this one piece of LR so i took out the rock and started prying around where all the crabs were, and broke it open. I found a dead....something that the rock had grown around, somehow an opening was made and it as decaying like crazy in my tank. i removed that piece of rock and everything went vey quickly back to normal. Just something interesting.
|
|
www.taylorwaldron.com
Chuck Norris does not sleep, he waits.
Hyvä Suomi!
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 7:28pm |
I'm still on the opposite end. I don't think Utah rock will ever compare with nice live rock.
Adam
|
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|
rfoote
Guest
Joined: February 24 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1926
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 9:36pm |
I'll likely get flamed on this board for it, but I will never use Utah Rock in a tank again. My thinking is just this simple; I have too much money, time and care invested into a tank to 2nd guess things. I would rather spend the extra money at least being more sure about what I am getting than I can be with Utah Rock.
Isn't it great though that we can all have different opinions and have varied success with them? That's all I'll say!
Edited by rfoote - October 13 2007 at 9:43pm
|
|
jonafriendj
Guest
Joined: October 01 2007
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 9:52pm |
Hey, if you can afford it without then why the heck not!  I agree with you on the spending extra money for not being sure. If you are a worrier like me, it might be worth the extra money to not stress about it! So what if you have to get a second job to buy rocks of all things, hehe jk. People don't really have any grounds for flaming on this post quite yet, if someone wants to spend their money rather than try something different, that's their decision. I have been impressed with the lack of flaming on this website.
|
|
Pleasant Grove
|
|
Dion Richins
Presidency
Joined: April 03 2005
Location: Farmington
Status: Offline
Points: 11664
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 9:54pm |
|
It is intereasting that the only problems talked about here are with Live Rock.
|
|
|
|
dkle
Guest
Joined: February 15 2004
Location: Taylorsville
Status: Offline
Points: 1784
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 9:57pm |
rfoote wrote:
I'll likely get flamed on this board for it, but I will never use Utah Rock in a tank again. My thinking is just this simple; I have too much money, time and care invested into a tank to 2nd guess things. I would rather spend the extra money at least being more sure about what I am getting than I can be with Utah Rock.
Isn't it great though that we can all have different opinions and have varied success with them? That's all I'll say!
|
I'll have to agree with you on this one. Most of the times, the rocks will turn out to be fine; but didn't you guys remember somebody on this board reported that his new rocks killed the tank and it turned out that one of the rocks had a piece of copper in it. I don't wanna be that guy. With all of the money invested in equipments and livestocks, I'd rather spend some more money to have my peace of mind. As far as whether utah rocks are as nice as live rocks, I think after being seeded, the coralline and biodiversity are pretty much the same as real live rocks; but the shapes of real live rocks (especially the more expensive ones) are much more interesting.
|
|
If you can't bedazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bs!
Dinhkim Le - Procrastinator extra-ordinare
|
|
trunks
Guest
Joined: June 10 2007
Location: Holladay
Status: Offline
Points: 204
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:19pm |
dkle wrote:
but didn't you guys remember somebody on this board reported that his new rocks killed the tank and it turned out that one of the rocks had a piece of copper in it. |
It's interesting that you would base your opinion/decisions on a thread you don't have a link for, posted by a user you don't remember. Even if one person had a problem, they are definitely in the minority. If you really are convinced by one person's experience, you should check out a psychology book and read the chapter on the law of small numbers. I did quite a bit of research before I decided to use LBTR. I wasn't able to find anything bad about it, just people trash talking that have never used it, or elitist individuals with non-scientific reasoning why "real" live rock is better (just like the audiophiles who claim their $1000 speaker cable is better than a lamp cord, but that's a whole different argument.) I won't even get into the ethical arguments for aquacultured rock.
|
|
dkle
Guest
Joined: February 15 2004
Location: Taylorsville
Status: Offline
Points: 1784
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:36pm |
trunks wrote:
dkle wrote:
but didn't you guys remember somebody on this board reported that his new rocks killed the tank and it turned out that one of the rocks had a piece of copper in it. |
It's interesting that you would base your opinion/decisions on a thread you don't have a link for, posted by a user you don't remember. Even if one person had a problem, they are definitely in the minority. If you really are convinced by one person's experience, you should check out a psychology book and read the chapter on the law of small numbers. I did quite a bit of research before I decided to use LBTR. I wasn't able to find anything bad about it, just people trash talking that have never used it, or elitist individuals with non-scientific reasoning why "real" live rock is better (just like the audiophiles who claim their $1000 speaker cable is better than a lamp cord, but that's a whole different argument.)
I won't even get into the ethical arguments for aquacultured rock.
|
woo! Can we just all back off for a minute, please! Didn't I state that most of the time the rocks turn out to be fine? Meaning that the incident is IN THE MINORITY. The link that talked about it was back when I started to get into this hobby; which was around 2004. I don't have the energy to look this up; but I am sure the old timers on this board would remember this. I am not making this up; if that's what you are getting at. It is very interesting how an innocent discussion turns into something personal and nasty. I have my standards; and one of those was NEVER talk trash about anything. We can all respectfully agree to disagree on any matter and can still be friends. I was merely stating my stand on the matter; in a respectful and humble manner; and somehow I turned into this trash-talking elitist. Speaking of which, it is wrong to look down on people; but it is absolutely ok to spend your hard-earned money in any manners that you see fit.
|
|
If you can't bedazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bs!
Dinhkim Le - Procrastinator extra-ordinare
|
|
