lighting schedule
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Topic: lighting schedule
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Subject: lighting schedule
Date Posted: January 03 2017 at 4:27pm
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hey all, I need some help. I am running an ATI six bulb dimmable fixture. Bulbs are front to back- blue+, purple+, blue+, blue+, coral+, blue+. I set the first channel to come on at 10am, ramping up to 60%. Off at 8:30pm. I set the second channel to come on at 1pm, ramping to 50%. Off at 6pm. The light is approximately 12 inches from the top of the water. Growth has been good on softies and LPS, slow on my monti and non-existent on my SPS. Last week, the birdsnest started bleaching and even my hydnophora started looking pissed. Any ideas on lighting? Tank parms are below: Alk- 9.5 Calcium- 410 Mag- 1350 SG- 1.026 Nitrates- 0.0 Phos- 0.3 thanks! ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Replies:
Posted By: kevin.st
Date Posted: January 03 2017 at 7:46pm
| Feed more. Your tank could be too clean. You also might need more fish. |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 5:18am
| sps and montis need more light than the lps. maybe try acclimating to a higher light over the next few weeks. If they're brown and ugly, definitely a lighting issue. Parameters look good though. whats the temperature? |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:12am
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Yes, we assume it's within normal range 70-80, but what is the daily temperature? Has there been a significant rise or fall in temperature within the last few weeks? You are correct that lighting is at issue for this tank. There may be other issues but let's work first on lighting. I like to analyse the details. Here are my analyses and my conclusions:
I recommend immediately increasing Channel 1 to 100% intensity. Also an immediate modification to have it go ON at 8AM, OFF at 9PM will probably start to save the coral. If you like, do an hour ramp-up and ramp-down. Dimming is a neat feature of that fixture, but not really necessary. The better feature, IMO, is having the two Channels. Remember, the equatorial sun shines on the wild reef for 12 hours every day. What is meant by "equatorial sun"? At or near the equator where coral live, the sun rises pretty much directly overhead every day, almost all year long. It's very bright. Also, SPS coral live in relatively shallow water where they receive almost the full intensity of the sun. Are the SPS coral at the top of your rock structure? It's been a while since I posted the pics that demonstrate sunlight color and intensity at depth. See my next post for those revealing pieces of the "puzzle".
Now is the point where I would like to ask some questions: What size is this tank? How close is the tank to a window and which direction does that window face? Why is the light fixture positioned a foot above the water? May we see a pic? Is AC being used, how much and how often is it changed? What method is being used to control PO4 levels? How many Snails and how many Hermits are in the tank? I know this is a lot of information, some seemingly bold recommendations and a lot of questions. It's all aimed at saving your coral. Discussion and questions are welcomed and encouraged. No question is too simple. Aloha, Mark
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WaitForIt... wrote:Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:21am
Enjoy: Now notice how quickly the water absorbs almost all but blue-actinic wavelengths/frequencies.    Photo Credits: Jacques Cousteau
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Posted By: Marcoss
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:27am
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Geoff, hey man, for what its worth, I do not think its the lighting, all the way. I have a pretty sucessful SPS system, the one you see when you walk in, that runs 9 hours a day on just two bulbs, and 7 hours a day on the other 8. (10 bulbs overlap for 7 hours). They run at 100% since its a pretty low tech system, and I get great growth. Also, I run a dimmable light on my frag system, and it only runs 8 hours a day (If you'd like, I can message you the light channels and periods). I hit a max of 60% for just a couple of hours and grow SPS in that system as well. I move SPS from system to system, and as long as they are properly acclimated to the light/hight, they do fine and continue to grow. The reason I don't hit 100% in a day is its a shallow tank, and I have racks with my SPS up high, and in the shadows/bottom of tank I have LPS. Just wanted to give my two cents on your lighting inquiry. ------------- RedSea Max S400 - 90G Rimless Frag Tanks x2 - 185 Lookdown Bin |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:27am
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Thanks for all of the replies! I have about 15 fish in there right now, and they always look hungry. I think I err on the side of underfeeding, just to limit the potential of too much nutrients in the tank. I was nervous that the lighting was too intense, that's why I had turned it down. Mark, you're right about the bulbs on channel one. I will increase this one over next week, up to 100%.
The average daily temp is 77 and is not in direct sight of any windows. The DT is 125 gallons.
------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:31am
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Thanks Marcos. Is the light too high from the water? I researched articles and placement of lights recommended from the manufacturer. that's how I reached the conclusion that 12" would suffice. My tank is approximately 23" deep, so maybe more light is better? ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:36am
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------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:37am
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having trouble uploading a pic of the tank. i'll keep at it
------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: Marcoss
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:43am
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Geoff, there is a guy on this forum that rents out his PAR meter for really cheap. T5s are very accurate when it comes to using a PAR meter. That would give you a definite answer. Corals can be acclimated to just about any light though; I have mushrooms at the top of my tank, around 400 PAR, and they grow like crazy. Most would consider that an SPS mostly area. When you take a reading, you will have a general idea of how far your light is penetrating, etc. ------------- RedSea Max S400 - 90G Rimless Frag Tanks x2 - 185 Lookdown Bin |
Posted By: Reefer4Ever
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 6:47pm
I run a 6 bulb over my 90 sps dominant with a little bit of everything else except leathers  I use the same bulb combo as you. My schedule is 8a 2 x blue+ on and go off at 8pm. Other 4 bulbs of 2 x blue+ 1 coral 1 purple plus are on in conjunction with the other 2 blue+ from noon to 6p. I did figure out with help from Jeff that I needed to feed my corals more lots lots more lol. I would definitely increase your lights intensity and depending on your no3 and po4 I would add some coral feedings in to your weekly schedule. My lights are also 12" off the water. ------------- 90 gal reef w/refugium 24 gal softie tank 11 gal nano anemone tank 5 gal fresh water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2017 at 8:39pm
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Thanks for bring this up Geoff. I love a good discussion. I looked again at the detail regarding lighting duration and intensity compared to what others have indicated and I really think there's too little light over your 125. A six tube, t5 light fixture positioned a foot high, pretty much needs to be at 100% to provide ample light. Also, since there is no sunlight (even indirect sunlight is very powerful), I am confident with my lighting recommendations above.
I agree, so it would probably help solve the problem if we knew the answers to some other questions: 1. What type of food and how much is being fed, how often? 2. Are the SPS coral at the top of the rock structure? 3. May we see a pic? (a pic really says a lot) 4. Is AC being used, how much and how often is it changed? (IMO, Activated Carbon is a must for every reef aquarium.) 5. What method is being used to control PO4 levels? 6. How many Snails and how many Hermits are in the tank? (This question has nothing to do with saving the coral, but when light is increased to a more appropriate duration and intensity, more Snails will be needed to control the increased growth of algae.) Regarding fixture height above the water, there is a principle of physics involved. The amount of light energy that reaches the water and travels to a coral is a function of distance. The more distance, the more the light spreads out and the less energy strikes any single point. Shortening the distance can make a big difference. I'd have to see the actual setup but lowering the light fixture to 4 inches above the water might come close to 50% more light reaching the coral. Well, that's enough for me for tonight. I hope it made sense. Aloha, Mark
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 8:48am
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Do you run both schedules at 100%? I really like having my lighting that high off the water. It cuts down on salt buildup on the underside of the lights and allows me to access the tank easier. ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 8:57am
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mark, 1. What type of food and how much is being fed, how often? I feed a combination of LRS frozen and angel/butterfly frozen from San Francisco Bay. I also clip seaweed every day for a rabbit and two tangs. 2. Are the SPS coral at the top of the rock structure? yes 3. May we see a pic? (a pic really says a lot) I can't figure out why I cant attach a pic. i'll text you one today. 4. Is AC being used, how much and how often is it changed? I have a bag of AC in the sump that I change monthly. 5. What method is being used to control PO4 levels? I have a refugium full of chaeto and some cool red macro that I cant name. 6. How many Snails and how many Hermits are in the tank? I have 10 or so hermits with at least double that of nassarius, turbo, trochus, conch and stomatellas. The turbos and stomatella snails constantly have babies, so at night the glass is covered with them. ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 8:58am
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sorry reefer. this one is for you ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: Reefer4Ever
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 9:38am
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Yes 100% 12 hours 2 blue+ and 6 hours adding in the other 4 bulbs blasting all 6 bulbs together. My struggle was to keep lps and zoas happy while keeping sps colored up and growing. Also remember excess nutrients in the water column reduce the par getting to the coral. Not that you have excess nutrients. ------------- 90 gal reef w/refugium 24 gal softie tank 11 gal nano anemone tank 5 gal fresh water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 9:59am
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My phone is not a smart phone so please email the pic to [email protected] and, if it's okay with you, I'll post it here. Instead of entering my phone number, tap in my email address in the send text box on your phone. [email protected] The info/answers you gave make me pretty sure that the trouble is completely due to insufficient light. More light will make your Tangs and Rabbitfish very happy too. They will be able to graze at their leisure on new algae. The trade-off is that algae will grow faster on the glass and all surfaces, so more Snails (no Nasarrius, cause they don't eat algae) will be needed to control the bloom. This is normal for a healthy reef.  Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 P.S. Rusty's Reefs, a great new LFS located directly across the street from The Aquarium, which closed last year, is an awesome place to buy Snails. Astrea, Margarita and Cerith are the best snails for reef aquariums.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 4:39pm
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Pic received and posted. Do I assume correctly that this is the way it looks midday when both channels have ramped up but prior to increasing the intensity of either channel?  As Marcos said, a PAR meter is accurate in gauging the intensity of light energy emitted from fluorescent lights. Digital cameras record light in a very similar manner to PAR meters and even our eyes are also pretty good at comparing/judging the intensity of fluorescent light. To me, this image shows a dark tank so I believe Geoff's hunch about the lighting was right on. Aloha, Mark
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 4:48pm
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yes, that's a bit of an old pic. still fairly representative though. That pic is before fish and much before any try at SPS ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:43pm
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Lighting is not your problem, it's water quality. I have a par meter and know this fixture well - at 12 inches awl your getting 350-400 at top of tank and 200 at sandbed. Just about right - if you get nutrients up u can drop it 4 to 5 inches more. 7- 8 hours all bulbs on is all that is needed. Dusk dawn business is up to you. Birdsnest corals are your indicator corals, if they don't look good, the decline will hit the rest in a few weeks time. I'd feed more or lower your alk to nsw levels if your going to keep phosphate and nitrate that low. |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:44pm
| Run bulbs at 100% |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 9:05am
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i'm feeding enough right now to have a few small patches of cyano on the sand. Although the testing indicates that the nutrient level is quite low, I suspect that the amount of macro I have in my fuge is masking some of the actual values. I am incrementally ramping up the lights right now, so I hope in a week or so to be where it should be. thanks! ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:02am
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I would strongly advise against doing it in just one week. If you read again my first (?) post on page 1, I recommend taking 3 weeks. Sadly, a few years ago I had a lot of experience with sunburning my coral farm. I fatally burned 1000's of dollars of coral (estimated over $10,000 of future revenue) by allowing the intensity to increase too quickly. Like people, coral are harmed by sunburn. Regarding an earlier thought, the light is shining through water that is quite clear, thanks to the activated carbon being changed monthly and the nutrient levels being quite low. Keeping the light fixture in it's present position should be okay. The Cyanobacteria is growing because of the sudden increase in feeding. Due to limited feeding in the past, the tanks overall biofiltration is not adequate to stop it's growth. I would not increase feeding past the point you're at right now and maybe even cut back. If cyanobacteria gets any worse, let us know so we can help you deal with it. Temporarily turning on the Refugium light 24 hrs/day is the first and easiest step. Make sure the Refugium light is extremely bright, otherwise macroalgae growth gets stunted and it can't do its job. In my experience over the years, I believe that irregular feeding works best. I skip at least one feeding each week and then feed a Thanksgiving feast every two weeks or so. There are several benefits to this, that I could go into, if you ask. Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:11am
cyano tells me a few things. 1. your phosphate is likely out of ratio with nitrate - you need to get nitrate up to 2-5 and keep phosphate 0.05 - 0.08 - google the redfield ratio. 2. your corals are starving - cyano sucks up nutrients more efficiently than any other algae, your sps don't have a chance to absorb nutrients before the cyano does. Try to starve out cyano and you will starve your sps as well. Algae and corals both need the same things. I would encourage more feeding - get nitrates up, and triple your clean up crew as the cyano will inevitably get worse when increasing feedings, but will cycle through and burn itself out for other more manageable algae to flourish in which the clean up crew can keep in check. I would be very cautious in increasing your light output and would go slow as the above poster noted (3-4 weeks). Please watch alk during this process of lighting change, it will shift and you will need to compensate or more problems will happen. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:13am
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Now we need to look at PO4. The level of 0.3 ppm is too high for SPS to live comfortably. Unfortunately, Phosphate cannot be adequately removed by algae alone. The best media for PO4 removal is the Activated Alumina(AA) that I have. It is better than GFO, doesn't require a reactor, is better than the Kent and Seachem AA products and I sell it for less as well, because I buy it in bulk. Let me know by text if you want some. And don't forget to add Astrea and Margarita Snails. Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:47am
Just for fun, a bit of trivia I learned not to long ago is that the symbiotic Zooxanthellae algae that live in and feed coral are a species of Dinoflagellate. In my mind that fact explains why Dinoflagellate and cyanobacteria tend to grow so easily in our tanks. It's a balancing act.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Reefer4Ever
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 1:32pm
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Agreed feed corals more using a good coral food I have had great success with the Benepets coral food Benereef. Slow as you go with light increases. Once a week imo to increase. Alk will be used more as the light period lengthens so be sure to watch it closely. The closer you are to nsw parameters the easier it is for algaes to grow so maybe here for the next few weeks keep your alk between 8 and 8.5, po4 at .3 is really high and you will need some media to remove it. GFO or AA will get the job done although AA can be thrown in a bag and put in a high flow area of the sump as where GFO for best results should be tumbled. Keep us posted this is a great line of questions and answers. ------------- 90 gal reef w/refugium 24 gal softie tank 11 gal nano anemone tank 5 gal fresh water |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 06 2017 at 3:43pm
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Sorry to send the last thoughts on a side road. My phosphates are at 0.03, not 0.3 as I stated earlier. Thanks for the advice on the ramp up on lighting, I totally misread the first post. I started supplementing with Rusty's reef food yesterday, which will inevitably increase the nutrient level. i'll keep you posted on the numbers. ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: evan127
Date Posted: January 07 2017 at 1:21pm
| I also agree that it is not your lighting that is the root cause of the problems. I think that running an ultra low nutrient system with high alkalinity, as well as having very intense lighting, is the issue. Increase your nutrients and look into the Redfield Ratio. I would start increasing your nitrogen very slowly and then start feeding more flake and pellet food when you start to see your nitrate climb. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 07 2017 at 7:15pm
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It's quite crazy how hobbyist opinions can be so different. Certainly there are many different ways of doing things and some of those ways are successful. One amazing thing about life on this planet is its ability to adapt. I believe it's generally agreed that SPS coral need these three unique conditions: 1. brighter light than other coral; 2. cleaner water than other coral; and 3. more water movement than other coral. Light - The 6 tube t5 lighting was set to peak at about 55% power level for an average of about 6 hours per day. Dawn-dusk ramp up times are not included in my rough estimate. As of this writing the photoperiod and intensity is being increased incrementally, aimed at eventually coming closer to 12 hours per day with the t5 fixture at full power. Water chemistry - Parameters seem to be within generally acceptable ranges. The water is clean enough, probably too clean as has been discussed. The solution we seemed to agree on is to feed more and that has begun. Water movement - We haven't touched on this yet. If it's not too much trouble, perhaps Geoff wouldn't mind telling us what pumps are operating and where they are positioned? Aloha, Mark
 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 08 2017 at 7:27am
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Okay. I looked up the "Redfield Ratio". My opinion is that this concept is very sound and that unbeknownst to me, I have been using the principle in a rough way for years. The technique, as I believe evan127 is suggesting, requires a hobbyist to daily monitor specifics of water chemistry and make fine adjustments with additives to keep algae from growing. It's usable on paper but in practice (IMO) is fairly difficult to accomplish. The information and technique have been available for years, but it has had trouble catching on in the hobby because of simpler/easier methods, mainly involving PO4 removal media and sufficient numbers of herbivores. My congratulations to evan127 for attempting this with his system and hope he continues to keep us apprised of its success here: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81189&PID=620239&title=evans-120#620239" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81189&PID=620239&title=evans-120#620239 Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: evan127
Date Posted: January 08 2017 at 9:57am
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I didn't think I was the first to mention the ratio in this thread. I thought someone else did, but I could be wrong. I wouldn't say that you need to monitor it daily to follow this method. I check phosphate and nitrate once a week. Regarding nitrates, I check it once a week to see how much of a drop there is and that gives me a rough estimate (based on what I dose for NO3) for what I need to dose daily to keep that parameter that works for my reef. Same effort that you would use to calculate alkalinity and calcium consumption. And maybe lets not highjack the thread and say that my reef thread is a great example of this method ;) |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 08 2017 at 12:23pm
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I have four hydor koralia. One is 1150 gph, two are 850 gph and one is a small 450 gph to target a dead spot. Also directional return flow. Movement seems good, but I'm open to thoughts! ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: Reefer4Ever
Date Posted: January 08 2017 at 3:17pm
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I'm with it being primarily not enough light still. I am very interested and will be following along to see how things go. ------------- 90 gal reef w/refugium 24 gal softie tank 11 gal nano anemone tank 5 gal fresh water |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 16 2017 at 8:18am
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Quick update. I started ramping up the lights intensity. Channel one has a P+ and a C+, up to 75%. Channel two with the remaining lights is up to 65%. I haven't changed the photoperiod yet. I think i'll wait until I've completed the ramp up completely to extend it. So far, everything seems to be doing well. My monti caps got mad and turned white in a couple of spots, but since they are near the top, I kind of expected that. My acans have opened fully on the sand bed and my hammer and frogspawn have both started growing new heads, so that's cool. ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: evan127
Date Posted: January 16 2017 at 8:43am
| Great to hear that things are going well! What is your current photoperiod right now? |
Posted By: WaitForIt...
Date Posted: January 16 2017 at 10:38am
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Evan, it's the same as before. Channel one on at 10am, off at 8:30pm. Channel two on at 1pm and off at 7pm (I think). ------------- It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire. |
Posted By: Reefer4Ever
Date Posted: January 16 2017 at 2:56pm
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Something to think about, running your whitish color bulbs so long could be another issue imo. I would make your first light 2 blue+ for the same photo period you have now with the coral+ and purple+ I would then have your 4 remaining bulbs come on the same time you have currently. It's how I do it on my tank and have pretty good color and growth on SPS to LPS and zoas. ------------- 90 gal reef w/refugium 24 gal softie tank 11 gal nano anemone tank 5 gal fresh water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 16 2017 at 7:37pm
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I agree. A 12 hour photoperiod of the most important color/spectrum, blue-actinic like in the natural ocean, has always been more important than increasing the intensity, in my experience. In other words, coral do better on a 12 hour daily period, even if it's just minimal light(several blue tubes), than they do on short daily periods of very intense whitish light. If you go back up and read what I originally wrote you'll see that increasing the photoperiod of the blueish light was my first step in saving the coral / saving the tank. It's important to remember 2 things: - Blue-actinic wavelength light is a lot brighter to marine animals and algae than it looks to our eyes. - Coral are the beneficiaries of lots of other living organisms in the tank and those organisms desperately need good light from morning to evening. Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049
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