ODDS of "success"
                                           and ease of use
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All Utah Rock/Sand Tank:              2:1

50/50 Tank:                                  5:1

All live rock/carib sand:                 8:1

Jon "the booky" Finch

This sounds like more of a wrestling match than an experiment.

So are you going to match wildlife?  and then record the the values of chemistry in them?

I'd add a couple of fish to each, as well as a couple inverts that are small and live corals to make it match up all the same.  OR maybe just fish.  A couple clowns in each.

Good luck, I'd be very interested in the results.

David

Maybe a scientist like Adam can correct me but it seems that the hypothesis needs to be stated plainly and specifically in the design phase. To "test the effects" is not specific.

And Jared makes a critical point. To be a valid experiment how could we compare lifeless Utah Aragonite to actual live rock. That would be like putting a beginning golfer up against Tiger Woods! Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding all along. I never said that Utah rock was better than LR, but I did state that it works! It ought to be used in addition to LR, or perhaps even as a major component! Life seems to grow on and in it just as well as and maybe a little better than the lifeless base rock that I have used many times in the past.

I am not trying to kill animals in my aquariums as one post queried, but neither am I willing to add to the destruction of the worlds reefs by buying all live rock for my aquariums. Nor am I trying to start an argument with anyone that does, but I strongly encourage everyone to help "Save a Reef" by growing their own!

Utah Aragonite Rock and Utah Oolitic Sand comprise about 90% of the rock and sand in my 10 gal. nano reef tank. I greatly appreciate it being accepted as July TOTM. This tank is clear evidence that we can do it here without touching the ocean. It is no longer acceptable just to think about how nice it would be. It is reality!

Of course, a lot of wild collected coral, fish and LR has died over the years as we have tried to learn and understand the art and science of Reef Keeping. I've done my share of killing. My wife has confronted me with that fact numerous times, calling me "fish-killer". Well, this time, even though the fish were wild caught, I only bought one coral that may have come from the ocean. Everything else was frags and cuttings. I sure do appreciate that most of the coral were from many of you. Steve Lopez' three frogspawn look great don't they! Two were buds, smaller than the tip of a pencil!

Please examine the pics. I invite everyone to see my tank in person by calling me anytime (296-1563) or go see my brother Rodney's tank on the Reef Tour.

In the three tanks (two have been successful for more than a year) in which I have used Utah rock and sand as a major component, all have had algae growth which absorbed the phosphate and other nutrients which are certainly present. (I never said it wasn't there.)

In fact, algae has always been a major part of my aquarium keeping, both freshwater and marine. Plants as nutrient users are a major part of all the worlds ecosystems. Doesn't this indicate that there are a lot of nutients present in the natural environment. Some time ago a famous statement came from somewhere that the coral reefs are like barren deserts with regard to nutrients. Yet life flourishes on the reef as it does in the rainforest. I belive it is now becoming more understood that the reefs are only seen as barren because the abundant life is eating up nutrients as fast as they become available.

Well, It's time to step off the soapbox.
So, what is the hypothesis that we should propose? What are the "effects" that will differ?

I say everyone should let this whole debate cool down for awhile, and not discuss it further.

Can't we just agree to disagree and take pride in our diversity?

(That last sentence is soon to be a part of a really cheesy song written by me. Copyrights apply... J/K)

The more debate the better, at leat IMHO.  I think it would be far better to run a test then let the debate die off.

Hypothesis:  The effect of imported LR and sea sand (is/is not) more productive or equally productive and safe to a reef tank than Utah Olitic and Argonite rock.

1) The Live rock and Utah Argonite must both be cured to a point with a probable seeding of both.  This would have to be done by seeding the argonite well enough over time to assume that it is seeded with atleast Benificial organisms.

2)The Sand must also be seeded, this could be done by seeding both in the same tank, but properly seperated, allowing water to flow over each easily to allow organism movement.

Then our controls would be equiptment, life(fish, inverts, etc), lighting, tank size, rock amount, etc. Each tank receivein the same amount of care, and additions in chemicals.  This would be the hard part, except noticeable swings in levels would be a good measure of worth.

The Outcome would have to be measured by the lenght of the observed health of either tank, either through growth rates, or what's still standing after a couple months.

I think it could work though.

David

I like the debate as well.  I think though in this situation it really isn't a valid experiment.  I think in my opinion if you are talking short term benefits, it is obvious that live rock is the way to go.  If you are in it for the long term there may be cost benefits to going with base/Aragonite rock.

To be valid though I think there has to be some way to measure success rather then just ooow, this coral looks nice here.  I'm all for the experiment and would like to know the results long term.  Just wondering what would be tested and how?

I would say you would be watching all levels, metals, Ca2+.  The Nitrates and such would probably just cycle as normal.

I think the biggest worry in this rock sems to be is it safe, so reef chemistry would be most important.  And then if the fish didn't flourish, you'd worry about enviroment that the rock creates if chemistry was okay.

Reef rock has been submerged for so long chemistry has balanced out, but Utah Argonite has not, but it was part of an ocean a couple eons ago.  And it's recent scrape with the GSL give it a good foot in the right direction.

"seed" the Utah rock and sand. "  I think this is the best bit of advise given thus far.  You can't expect dead rock and sand to have the same benefits as live rock and sand.    You are taking a chance with anything you put in your tank, even though the lable says it is reef safe who knows except by experimentation.  I think this test has already been done, take a look at Mark's tank, the others are ours.  Either way you set you your tank is up to you. 

The hole debate on this is a good thing.  Keep it comming, but keep it under control.

I think it'd be really cool to watch the tanks mature and see how they differ, but I don't think there's really any way to set up the experiment to give either side of the debate any "scientific" evidence.

Consider some possible results:

1.  The tanks with aragonite crash after 2 months.  Does that mean aragonite is bad?  Obviously not, because there are many who have kept successful systems with aragonite rock for much longer.  All this does is confirm the fact that the aragonite does have risks associated with it.  But we already know that.

2.  More likely: all 3 tanks will do fine for as long as Marcus or whoever is willing to keep them up.  This however doesn't mean the rock is completely safe.  Someone did report getting a piece with copper, so the risks remain.

3.  Also, very likely: the all-LR tank looks much more "alive" than the all aragonite rock tank at 6 months.  Does that mean aragonite isn't a valid choice for a reef tank?  No, it just means it takes longer for dead rock to grow life on it.  You get what you pay for.

At this point, the whole debate has reached a stalemate which wouldn't be helped by this experiment.  It's a fact that some aragonite rock has bad stuff in it, specifically copper.  Some one got a piece with some in it.  It's also a fact that there are hundreds of pounds of aragonite in healthy aquariums throughout the area.  The debate seems to just be whether people are willing to risk it.  Some say yes, some say no.  Because that's just a matter of opinion, there's no experiment which will help either side.

Now that's just my take on the debate.  I don't recall hearing (or reading) anyone say aragonite is BETTER, nor do I recall anyone saying that aragonite WON'T work.  It just seems to be a matter of risk, which is a matter of personal opinion.

Like I said at the beginning though, I think this would be a fun "experiment" for curiosity's sake.  It'd be interesting to see them side-by-side to fully appreciate the differences.

-Tom

I am not trying to kill animals in my aquariums as one post queried

I never sayed you were trying to kill animals. So it might be a good idea to read my post again so you don't slander what was sayed.

Jon stated, "All I'm interested in now is how Mark's tank progresses from here..."
I'm starting to feel the pressure.  I try lots of things, but most of the time I only bring up the stuff that works.  Don't forget that my friend Chad and my brother Rodney's tanks have been working with Utah rock and sand since early Spring 2002.

Just to show that I'm not completely blind to, or trying to hide the facts....The clam died. It looked great before I went on a 7 day vacation, but after weeks of low light and no feeding because of trying to eradicate flatworms, it and also the remaining Green Chromis are gone. Though the unsuccessful treatment of Salifert's Flatworm Exit about five or six weeks ago, weakened the clam and Chromis more than others, I believe the recent lack of attention led to their demise. I cannot say that it wasn't due to the rock and sand, but everything else is doing just fine.

On the bright side, I saw only two flatworms in a corner on the glass the day I returned, but they too are now gone. None have been visible for more than a week as of this writing, so I am claiming success.

The treatment for these flatworms, in my experience, is to get some predators like the Yellow Tailed Blue Damsel, and/or the Mandarinfish, reduce the feeding and turn off most of the lights. I don't have the formula for how much or how long, but in my case I watched and waited. The Damsels and Green Mandarinfish had full bellies all through the course. If the rest of the tank started looking too hungry or in need of light, I would add a little/turn on the lights for a day or two. I'd say it took about three weeks of this, but haleluyah, now I can give frags away without cursing the recipient with the dreaded flatworm!

I promised Mike Dawson a frag or two and Carlos Gurr wanted some Green Star Polyps that are spreading fast across the back glass. There is one of the Jones' purple plate coral I will give away for $10 and a large specimin (5 inches) of extinct Palau Green Nepthia for $5. The red grape algae has grown back. I give these sprigs away for free. Also there are three frags of yellow polyps, two small ones for free and one large for $5. I give away pieces of photosynthetic sponge which every tank needs. Oh and there is a rock with Woods Polyps, Finger Leather and pink Sponge that I'll let go for $10.

Does anyone need a free, unopened bottle of Greenex?

I didn't go back and look at the post but it said something like, do we know if these things we are trying (the rock and sand) are going to kill animals and that it may be better to stick with the tried and true methods.

If my comment about it was slanderous toward scroll or whomever wrote it, I apologize. I guess what I meant was that I am always trying those things that work to benefit our little reefs and the inhabitants.

In the process of keeping multiple tanks in my home over 10 years, I've sadly lost my share of organisms. I learn how to keep some alive, and with others, I am unsuccessful (Seahorses for example). But my opinion is: how else will we develop methods to successfully keep these animals if we don't try and then share our findings.

Keeping coral alive in captivity at one time was futile. Today we can grow and propagate them. Many mistakes were made along the way, but with that developed ability scientists are now growing those same coral to find new pharmaceutical products. To me that's fantastic and it reminds me of the fun meeting in 1996 when pioneer coral farmer Leroy Headlee (http://www.garf.org">www.garf.org) visited the WMAS and drew a picture on the chalkboard under the heading: "How to propagate a Mushroom Leather Coral."

We've come a long way since then. (The VHS tape of that meeting is in the WMAS Library, by the way.)

Quote: Originally posted by tomason on 22 July 2003

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At this point, the whole debate has reached a stalemate which wouldn't be helped by this experiment.  It's a fact that some aragonite rock has bad stuff in it, specifically copper.  Some one got a piece with some in it.  It's also a fact that there are hundreds of pounds of aragonite in healthy aquariums throughout the area.  The debate seems to just be whether people are willing to risk it.  Some say yes, some say no.  Because that's just a matter of opinion, there's no experiment which will help either side.

Now that's just my take on the debate.  I don't recall hearing (or reading) anyone say aragonite is BETTER, nor do I recall anyone saying that aragonite WON'T work.  It just seems to be a matter of risk, which is a matter of personal opinion.

Like I said at the beginning though, I think this would be a fun "experiment" for curiosity's sake.  It'd be interesting to see them side-by-side to fully appreciate the differences.

-Tom

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Well said. That's what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that the debate is a bad idea if it is kept under control. My concern is that new members, or "visitors" to this board may become overwhelmed by the Oolitic/Aragonite debate. I'm referring more to some of the personal "comments" that have come up regarding the issue than anything.

Personally, I have a bit of both of these items in my tank, primarily used as a filler for my imported live rock, and live sand. I don't think it has hurt anything in my tank so far. While I admit that I have endorsed the Oolitic/Aragonite method in the past, I will say that if I could do it all over again, (and had the money when I did it,) that I would have used 100% Imported Live Rock, and Live Sand. The only reason why is because every time something happens in my tank, It's hard not to look directly at my use of the rock specifically, and wonder if it's the cause of some underlying problem. While I haven't had anything thus far that would implicate the rock or the sand, it would be nice to eliminate it from my thought process. 

For what it's worth though, a good alternative to the experiment might be just to agree that both methods work, and that one is not necessarily better than the other. I think we can all agree that one method is cheaper, but at the risk/cost of the person who uses it.

Mark,  sorry about the clam   My clam is doing much better after you talked me into increasing my phyto feedings.

FWIW, Shawn at Aquatica tried Flatworm Exit on one of his tanks with no effect on the flatworms.  He saw no effect on the corals/fish either... sounds like Flatworm Exit isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'd like a piece of that photo sponge some time.  Thanks.

I just thought I would throw another 2 cents into the debate even though it is over.  People have mentioned the drawback of using agragonite but have not mentioned the problems that can occur with live rock.  With the use of live rock you take the chance of importing many types of aquarium pests such as mantis shrimp, rock crabs, aptaisia, manjo, flat worms, parasitic isopods and the list goes on and on.

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus on 23 July 2003

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I think that the general census of this forum is that the "experiment" should not happen, which was the point of this thread.  Since, the conclusion has been drawn, maybe the moderator should close this thread to further comments.

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Quote: Originally posted by jfinch on 23 July 2003

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No mo bets!  Bonzai!

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Quote: Originally posted by scroll on 24 July 2003

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Well no one ever got back to me so I guess this Utah stuff is not all its cracked up to be. 

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Don't open yourself up to an attack.

I'm going back to Vermont and setting up a prop tank with all utah aragonite and 1 piece of ocean live rock (for seeding purposes).  I'll let everyone know how it works. 2 20g tanks, DSB, 1 tank MH the other 96watt pc connected together.

Brad