Marine Velvet
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63882
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Topic: Marine Velvet
Posted By: Ann_A
Subject: Marine Velvet
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 2:11pm
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So recently I lost an emperor angelfish to marine velvet, and I have now lost two anthias and a copperband as well. The remaining fish seem fine, but I'm worried nonetheless. I can't catch them without completely destroying my rockwork, so doing a freshwater dip treatment is almost out of the question. I feed with garlic, and try to maintain a stress-free environment for the fish. Is there anything more I can do? I have these left... 2 Oscellaris Clownfish 1 Dispar Anthias 1 Powder Blue Tang 1 Niger Triggerfish 1 Melanurus Wrasse 1 Yellow Rose Goby Should I be worried about the fish and what more can I do for them? ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Replies:
Posted By: chuckfu
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 2:27pm
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Be worried! It wipped out my tank once and all that survived was a damsel. Is it killing them one by one? It was horrible watching my clowns go. Good luck. ------------- Try, try, try, then give up! |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 2:30pm
Yes so far it has been one by one.  ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
chuckfu wrote:Posted By: chuckfu
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 2:42pm
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Thats how it was in my tank except for the clownfish. It was horrible watching them die. It was like skin was falling off of them. ------------- Try, try, try, then give up! |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 3:05pm
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Is there anything I can do for my fish??? ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: sabeypets
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 3:09pm
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UV sterilizer. ------------- Shaun American Fork "Would you leave a dead cat in your kitchen till tommorow?" Builderofdreams |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 3:15pm
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Already have one ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: chuckfu
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 3:22pm
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What I read it said copper is the only thing effective. ------------- Try, try, try, then give up! |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:03pm
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Can you do a larger partial water change so that the fish have less swim room/ places to hide in the rock work to catch them and dip or quarantine? that or fish trap. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:29pm
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As having fought it and beat it...you can't beat it halfway. You have to wipe it out. Qt tank...that's why I keep stressing them. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: chuckfu
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:58pm
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Where did u get the angel from? ------------- Try, try, try, then give up! |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:59pm
Pet Village. Assuming I'm able to catch the fish, what method of treatment is best in the quarantine tank? ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 9:09am
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Alright I'm going to move the fish into quarantine this week. Here's my treatment plan... Let me know what you think. Day 1: -Perform a 10 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish directly into quarantine tank with copper. Day 2: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 3: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 5: -Perform a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Day 7: -Perform a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Day 10: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 17: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 24: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 31: -Perform a 100% water change on quarantine tank meanwhile doing a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank WITHOUT copper. Day 45: -Perform a 50% water change on quarantine tank. Day 59: -Move fish back to display tank (assuming treatment has gone well and no fish are showing signs of MV). ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 9:35am
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Just updated the treatment plan after doing some more research on MV and finding out the full life cycle and lifetime expectancy. ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 9:43am
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Hey Ann...this is what I'd suggest based on our earlier discussions: Day 1: 5 minute freshwater dip in methylene blue, then into a tank with copper. Day 2: 5 minute freshwater dip in methylene blue, then back into the same tank with copper (No 100% water change. The copper will handle any dislodged parasites. I think the water change would be too much stress, and it'll use more copper.) Day 3: 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue, then back into the same tank with copper. Day 4-21: Copper treatment I still don't like copper for this parasite since it has such a small range of effectiveness. I'd rather see you do the tank transfer method with freshwater dips between rather than returning the fish to an infectious tank. Also, I wouldn't do more than 3 freshwater dips since they are rather stressful. The initial 3 will knock off the vast majority (if not all) the trophonts so that the fish can begin to heal. This is where I like to run an antibiotic (but I don't think most are compatible with copper.) The copper will hopefully keep the fish from getting reinfected if it is kept at the proper dosage (hope you have a copper test kit.) Copper only targets the dinospores (the free-swimming stage). Freshwater dips target the trophonts (the attached-to-the-fish stage). Tank transfers target the dinospores and tomonts (reproductive stage). Tomonts are pretty much entirely drug-treatment-resistant. That's why I like the tank transfers in combination with freshwater dips for this parasite. Last note...I decreased the time on the first freshwater dip to 5 minutes. Looking back through my notes, I don't think 10 minutes is necessary. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 9:50am
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P.S. Chloroquine diphosphate supposedly works wonders on this...and only requires one to two doses over 10 days. I have some...but I've never used it. If you want to try it, you're welcome to...but I can't be of much help. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 9:56am
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Here are some good articles... This one is just a summary of the disease and options...but it's kinda old (2004.) http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/ This one is more up-to-date and helpful (IMO): https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/227/" rel="nofollow - https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/227/ ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 10:01am
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Adjusted the treatment plan: Day 1: -Perform a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish directly into quarantine tank with copper. Day 2: -Perform a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 3: -Perform a 5 minute freshwater dip with methylene blue. Move fish back into quarantine tank with copper. Day 4-58: -Quarantine tank with copper treatment. Day 59: -Move fish back to display tank (assuming treatment has gone well and no fish are showing signs of MV). ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 10:08am
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Sent you a text. No need to go to Day 58 with copper (in fact, that can cause serious health issues in fish.) The freshwater dips will knock out nearly 100% of the velvet parasite, which will shorten your required treatment time. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 10:15am
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Ok I'm going to switch from copper to non-medicated saltwater on day 25. ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 11:02am
| Mark Callahan said that velvet will stay in the tank for upto six months without a host so even if your fish live it will kill others in the tank unless you get everything out of the tank asap. If there are signs of velvet on the fis no amount of medecation will save them. You have to treat the fish before the symtoms show. I guess as the infected fish touches the rock it is passed to the rock and waits for a fish to swim by and hit the rock then it passes to its next victimI will find the link to his video about it. |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 11:12am
From my research velvet doesn't have a dormant stage and has to have a host in order to survive. I'm pulling ALL of the fish out today. Also my tank runs at 80F which will speed up the life cycle of the parasite so without a host it should be gone after a month or two. I may end up running fish-less for 6 months anyways just to be sure that ich and all other fish parasites are out of the tank. How long does everyone think I should go to rid the display tank of parasites? ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 11:23am
| Anne your right. I don't think it has a dormant stage but it has a long life span so that's why you pull the fish out of the tank |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 12:47pm
This is incorrect. It's more difficult to treat at this stage, but it's not impossible. I've successfully treated at this stage, and so have many others. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:06pm
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really? that is interesting. What did you do to prevent the parasite from spreading to lr the sand? |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:09pm
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You don't. You have to treat the fish in a quarantine tank. Since Velvet can be transferred in a single droplet (or can even be aerosolized in rare cases), I have fishless coral QT systems. That prevents Velvet (or other parasites) from coming in on my corals to attack my healthy fish. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:09pm
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Anne here is the link I was mentioning I also found this so I figure it would be worth posting. http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83" rel="nofollow - http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83 |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:21pm
I was looking through your steps and had a couple of questions. what is methylene blue? how did you clean up the infected tank rocks, sand and water? |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:27pm
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He's referencing "experienced aquarists" for the info about how long velvet can survive about a host. I'm citing scientific studies that are peer-reviewed and have been repeated multiple times over multiple decades. Sorry...I'm skeptical there. The tomonts can remain encysted for up to two weeks without a host present. The dinophores can survive up to 15 days without a host. Six weeks (as is typical for waiting out other parasites) should be more than sufficient. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 6:38pm
Ok...I'm no vet, so I'm treading into some deep water here. Methylene blue is a redox dye medication that is used in the fish hobby (and many other medical/hobby fields) to treat for a variety of issues, including cyanide poisoning, high ammonia/nitrate exposure, oxygen deprivation, tissue injury staining, some fungal infections, and it is somewhat effective against some protozoans (like ich, velvet, brook, etc.) These properties are why I use and encourage its use in a combination with freshwater dips on nearly all new (and injured/sick) fish. Many new fish are oxygen deprived, have cyanide poisoning, or were exposed to high levels of ammonia during shipping/handling. Plus, it'll knock off the majority of parasites when used with a freshwater dip. I never had to "clean up the infected tank rocks, sand and water" because I treated my fish in a QT before I introduced them to my main display. If I somehow got velvet/ich/whatever in my main tank, I would remove all fish and treat them in a separate QT tank. I would let the main tank run fallow for 6 weeks, during which, the parasites would die from lack of a food source. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 7:06pm
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I am glad I asked the question. Thanks for answering. I have heard that fish are still caught using cyanide. I thought that there was no hope for them. So the next question is where can you get Methylene blue? The vet? This is good information we can all learn from thanks for sharing. |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 8:24pm
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I don't know the treatment protocol for cyanide poisoning...sorry. But, yes, fish are still caught with it in some cases. I'm sure some of our LFS carry methylene blue...and sometimes the big box pet stores carry it as well. If not, I know Marine Depot and other online fish stores have it. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 7:13pm
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Lost the last anthias, 1 clown, and my yellow rose goby today. The yellow rose goby is literally lost in my 29 probably just hiding under a rock or in the sand, so hopefully he's still alive but I doubt it. The remaining clown is in the quarantine tank and the tang, trigger, and melanurus are going in tonight in about an hour. ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: chuckfu
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 7:42pm
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So sorry! It is a horrible disease. ------------- Try, try, try, then give up! |
Posted By: JohnnyHeavens
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 6:58am
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Sorry to hear this Ann! Glad you have a plan in action ------------- @Home 300g System 150g-Cube Reef+60g Frag+WaterChange 150g Tall FOWLR RIP @Work RSM 130D w/LEDs txt anytime @ eightO1-seven5five-eighteen99 Scuba! PADI Pro DM/AI/TecDeep NSS/CDS-Full Cave Diver |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 7:31am
Everybody is in quarantine and survived the night. Hopefully it'll be uphill from here. ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 8:11am
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Yeah!!! ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: HPballer76
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 11:10am
| Just a suggestion but maybe put some PVC pipes or something for the fish to hide in and feel secure while they are in the qt. would help a lot with stress. |
Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 11:15am
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I was planning to this afternoon. ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |