water tests
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Forum Name: Reef Chemistry
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47209
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Topic: water tests
Posted By: phinfan
Subject: water tests
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 10:27pm
| Is it any surprise to have such huge differences in testing of parameters between the different brands of test kits? I have asked a similar question before, but need further understanding. I had my water tested at a LFS that uses the Hagen Kit. Results for the CAL was 460, and ALK 14. I recently purchased the API test kit knowing that once I start putting more livestock in the tank that I will want to be using the Salifert brand. I purchased this kit due to price, knowing that I may be testing frequently while I get used to making adjustments to my parameters. My results were quite different. CAL 320-340, and ALK 9. Another LFS has had results that deviate from both the above mentioned also, and they use the Hagen as well. |
Replies:
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 10:37pm
| That is one thing that really bugs me too.... |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 8:44am
|
I have used Salifert for a long time. I saw different readings between
Salifert Alkalinity kits when I was the one doing the testing. I discovered it was a
different manufacturing batch. Of course it's not just the kit, but any person using it. Knowing when to read the color change is part of it. The question must be asked, "Do I stop adding drops when the color just begins to change or when it stops changing?" (You might be surprised at how many LFS employees don't know a thing about this, as well as a great many technical aspects of the hobby.) Here is a little "experiment" for you. The next time you test for Alk, note the point at which the color begins to change and then again when it stops changing. What are the Alk readings at those two points and how much difference is there? Here is something that will also help. Knowing the approximate Alk and Ca of the salt mix and then averaging the results of the various tests by you and the LFS is the way to calibrate your own testing results. It's common in statistical analysis to throw out the highest reading and the lowest reading and take the average of what's left. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
|
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 5:44pm
| Would it surprise any one to hear, that the tests I have done with the API and Salifert, in regards to cal and alk, are getting results that are closer to each other than the tests performed at the 2 LFS that are using Hagen (Nutra Fin). |
Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 6:10pm
| I think i would trust the api and sailfert tests. I agree with mark about looking at what salt mix you are using. Think if it this way your tank was just set up and if your not dosing anything (which you shouldnt be). How would your alk get that high? Until you have a bunch of corals or coraline algae sucking up those two your numbers shouldnt change a whole lot from the salt mix. |
Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 6:14pm
| And im not suprised the lfs were off you will learn you care more about your tank than anybody else. They might not of even done the test properly. |
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 7:03pm
|
I don't trust Hagen test kits at all. I used their test kits when I first started in this hobby and they weren't great.
I have liked Salifert but would buy Elos if I needed new test kits. What stores are using Hagen? Not a good choice IMO. I understand saving money but not at the expense of possibly ruining someone else's tank(s). I will give a quick story of when I was helping a LFS. We had a guy come in and told us he couldn't keep ANY coral alive. So I started asking about his setup and asked for all the details. He told me about his tank and about another LFS that was helping him out with his tank. I asked about his water parameters. He said they were "fine" according to the other store. I then asked what "fine" meant. He had no clue and had no numbers to give me. So he brought water in for me test another day. Alkalinity was well above 15 and calcium was around 700. I was SHOCKED and asked him if his tank had "snow" in it. He said when he dosed his product he got some of that "snow" I asked about. I asked him why he was dosing anything if he had no coral to uptake the supplements. His reply, "They told me I needed to add this stuff." I told him to not touch a thing and do a large water change to help bring things in check. I also learned he had ZERO powerheads in his tank, only his two returns and they were doing about 900 gph on a 150 gallon tank. Yes, I was shocked. After a few weeks he started adding coral and things were doing 100x better. Moral of the story: Get your own tests and then compare them to the LFS. I am not saying to not trust our LFS. I love some of them. But as stated above, you will learn and care more about your tank then some random LFS employee. |
Posted By: tcfab
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 7:35pm
|
I agree with Ryan, I would get some salifert test kits and start testing on your own. Its much easier and faster to test yourself when there is a problem with your tank. ------------- Need custom acrylic work? give me a call, www.Elite-Aquatics.net (801)645-6386 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 10:00pm
 That's why I love this group. We all have something to add which brings us to the answers best fitting the circumstances,  and with helpful stories too. Ya'll are awesome.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 10:18pm
| I do like the salifert kits. When I first read the directions I thought they sounded way more difficult. I changed my mind after doing the first test. |
Posted By: tcfab
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 11:59pm
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Rick you will get the hang of it after doing 10 times or so. You get to the point where you don't even have to look at the directions anymore lol ------------- Need custom acrylic work? give me a call, www.Elite-Aquatics.net (801)645-6386 |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:38pm
|
Well, here is the latest. I have been discussing this with Mark, so I am going to toss it out here as well. Still getting frustrated, bought Salifert tests for Cal and Alk. I found that they were somewhat close to the test results I was getting from the API kit. All tests were quite a bit different from those at the LFS, in comparison, 2 different stores. I believe I am getting accurate readings from all my testing, understanding there may be some variation between the different brands. Most tests were drastically different from what the LFS were giving me. No offense in any way to their tests, just trying to understand it all. The next frustration is that I am continually adding calcium to attempt to reach the 450 range. I get close then the next test I am back to the 320 -340 range. I don't even have any corals yet, just snails, crabs, 10 of each, and 1 maroon clown. Will the livestock mentioned use this much Calcium? I only used instant ocean to get through the cycle. I have some Oceanic to do my first water change with. Some of you have mentioned that the instant ocean salt I used could be the problem, but even if it was, shouldn't I be able to get the Calcium up to the 450 range and maintain it? Can I hear all of you saying buy a calcium reactor? It is probably in the future, but not right now I hope. Does most every one use a reactor? |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:46pm
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The first thing I would check is your Magnesium level. Magnesium is the component of the Holy Trio that helps maintain a balance between the three. I would guess if your having difficulty maintaining calcium levels your magnesium levels are also low. Shoot for a bout 1350 on the mag test. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:50pm
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Oh ya, Calcium Magnesium and Alkalinity are what I call the Holy Trio and they all work together to keep your livestock happy. Shoot for Calcium over 400, Magnesium 1300 to 1350, and Alk between 8 and 12DKH. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:55pm
| Thanks you are the first to mention Mag. I haven't been told by LFS or anyone else that it should or could be a problem, I have an API test for that I will check it now, and post results soon. |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:58pm
| OOPS!!! I thought I had a test for Mag in the API test kit, but I don't. |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 6:59pm
| What supplement do I need for Mag? |
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 7:18pm
| Magnesium...but you really shouldn't be using much if any mag yet with no/to little lps and sps. |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 7:23pm
| I know, but that is what I would have thought about calcium as well, yes/ no??? |
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:09pm
|
No calcium, and alk go hand in hand.... one is low the other is high.... magnesium,is part of the building blocks of a skeleton, not the main component. Pretty much all salts have mag in it, someone had a salt diagram the other day, and with regular water changes you should replace all the trace elements that a "normal stocked" tank demands.
Its kind of like this..if you take a piece of coral skeleton and figure out how its bonded together molecularly you find like 10,000 cal, 500 mag, and like 7 strontium particles( numbers are wrong but it kind of gives you the idea). Without dosing mag or strontium, boron,molybendeum you are going to be fine as long your demand for those is not high. And once again most reef salts contain all of those. I asked brad syphus one time how much magnesium he doses, he said, oh I don't know I just throw a few handfulls into the filter sock. And his tank is heavily stocked. Plus he usues kalkwasser and a calcium reactor. And when kalkwasser precepitates magnesium goes with it |
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:12pm
| Oh and one more thing, a higher mag level will help inhibit coraline algae growth... some people find this a good thing since coraline intakes calcium at something like 3x what a coral can.... so the more you have to dose |
Posted By: phinfan
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:49pm
|
Thanks I talked to a LFS tonight. They told me that Mag wasn't mentioned, because it is the most expensive test, and they hadn't tested for it.
|
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 12:40am
I wouldn't sweat it. There is no reason to test for it because in your brand new tank the Mg will be at about whatever level the salt mix delivers. 
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 12:41am
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I agree with Mark. Once your tank has been running for a month or two I'd recommend getting a Mg test, then just keep your level at about 1300 and you'll be all set. ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |