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Ice Melt used for Calcium

Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Specialized Discussion
Forum Name: DIY
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3948
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Topic: Ice Melt used for Calcium
Posted By: KeoDog
Subject: Ice Melt used for Calcium
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 6:27am

Jon, this is kind of aimed at you because I know you were talking about this at the end of last winter.  Have you done any more research on this now that these products are comming back into the stores?  I was in Sam's Club yesterday and they had 50lb buckets of what said pure calcium chloride for $15.  Futher looking at the ingredients showed the following:

Cas no Calcium Chloride 010043-52-4

Cas no Sodium Chloride 007647-14-5

Cas no Potassium Chloride 007447-40-7

Cas no Water 007732-18-5

Do the numbers at the end mean anything?  I noticed the exact same numbers on a different brand.  Is this the right kind of calcium needed for our tanks?  Is the potassium a bad thing?



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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand



Replies:
Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:14am

I've been using Dow Peladow brand ice melt.  It is "pure" anhydrous calcium chloride.  Dow Dowflake is "pure" hydrated calcium chloride.  Randy Holmes Farley analyzed Dowflake for impurities and compared it to other calcium chloride aquarium products in this article:  http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

The Peladow that I've been using, according to Dow, is just Dowflake with the mosture removed.  I've not noticed any ill effects from this (and I've been using quite a bit).  So... the only snowmelt that I would feel comfortable using is either Dowflake or Peladow.  Although, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that many others are just as good.

If you want to try out a different brand, look for a product that is pure white and is mostly calcium chloride.  Pure anhydrous CaCl2 should be about 97% CaCl2.  Peladow is 90% and about 3.7% (other salts... mostly NaCl) so there is still a little mosture in the product.  Fully hydrated CaCl2 would be 70-75% CaCl2.  Prestone markets a snow melt that appears to fit this description.  I probably wouldn't use any product that was less then 70%. 

Re: the CAS numbers
CAS (Chemical Abstract Service) numbers are a unique number given to every chemical known to man.  The name calcium chloride might mean something different in France, but CaCl2 will always have the same identifying number.  To you and me that number means nothing



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:22am
Ok, let me get this straight.  You would use either the Dow Peladow or the Dow Dowflake.  Which would you prefer and where can I get it?  I just paid $55 for Kents turbo calcium 3200g and want a cheaper way to go. Thanks.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:41am

You would use either the Dow Peladow or the Dow Dowflake.

Yes

Which would you prefer and where can I get it?

Either and I'm not really sure where it's sold .  I got my 50 lb bag of Peladow off a big pallet at my work.  I'll ask our purchasing agent where she gets it.  Before I noticed the Peladow here at work, I bought a container of Prestone Driveway Heat (I saw it at Home Depot and Checker Auto last winter).  I think that this material is packaged by Scottwood Industries for Prestone and is the same as Scottwood's Excel product:  http://www.scotwoodindustries.com/Excel%20-%20MSDS.doc - http://www.scotwoodindustries.com/Excel%20-%20MSDS.doc   If I couldn't find either of the DOW products I would probably try the Prestone stuff.  As a matter of fact if you want to try this stuff out you can have my package of Driveway Heat.



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:45am

I just noticed that in one post I said I would only use one of the Dow products and in the next post I said I would probably use the Prestone product.  I must be confused .  If I were to use the Prestone stuff I would go very slow and watch how everything reacts to it, before going hog wild. 



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:56am
The 2 products I seen at Sam's club must have been both Scottwood.  One bag said SWI but it had magnesium listed as one of the ingredients.  The 50lb bucket from EXCEL did not list the mag.  The data sheet you linked showed it at 94% pure. which seems pretty good.  What is the Dow listed at?  I guess I will try and find a local supplier for the Dow.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 8:07am
Ultimately it's not so much the amount of CaCl2 that's there but the amount of impurities (i.e. heavy metals).  That is why the article by RHF was useful, but only applies to the Dow stuff.  If you decide to try the Excel please let me know what you think.  But I would spend some time trying to find the Dow stuff before buying anything else.

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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 10:10am
Ok Jon, I called up Dow and the lady told me that here in Utah the Peledow is often repackaged and sold as Prestone Driveway Heat.  I asked her if it was the exact same stuff and she said yes.  I also found a place that sells the package by Dow.  Challenger Idustrial buys it by the truck load but he also says he has the 50lb bags from Dow for $18.  He is taking a bag home for me tonight to pick up in South Jordan.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 10:34am

I talked to Univar who is the distributor for Dow in Utah.  They sell to a number of places (but not to indivuduals... unless you're buying a pallet load) and suggested I try The Janitor's Closet (532-3812) or Waxie Sanitary Supply (367-5490).  Both places are selling 50 lb bags of Peladow for $18 too.  It looks like it won't be that hard to find afterall.

Good news on the Prestone stuff too...



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 12:06pm

So you are using this as an unbalanced calcium additive? What do you use to keep your alk up?  What would be the advantage of this over something like Kalkwaser? Both are pretty cheap. Can this be added faster than kalkwaser?



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Jared Neilsen
Lehi, Utah


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 12:07pm
I wonder if the Prestone product uses both the Dow and The Scottwood when they repackage depending on pricing/availability. Was there labling on your container showing Scottwood?

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 12:52pm

Jared,  unbalanced additive.  I use baking soda (or baked baking soda, washing soda) for alkalinity.  The advantage over kalkwasser is that I can add whatever the tank needs without really effecting pH.  The disadvantage is that is unbalanced and prolonged usage can lead to higher then NSW levels of sodium and chloride.

Kevin,  I'll check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure it had a Scottwood Industries logo somewhere on the label.



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 5:07pm

Sure 'nuff.  My Prestone Driveway Heat says "Distributed by Scotwood Industries, Inc".

I wonder if the Prestone product uses both the Dow and The Scottwood when they repackage depending on pricing/availability. Was there labling on your container showing Scottwood?

It could just as easily be the other way around... i.e. Scotwood doesn't actually "manufacture" anything they just buy in bulk, repackage and sell under their name.  Happens all the time.  Excel = Driveway Heat = Peladow.  And I think Dow is one of the largest calcium chloride producers in the USA.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 6:02pm
How do you add this stuff to your tank and in what quantities?  I suppose you test Calcium before adding it.  True?


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 7:39pm
The same way you would use Turbo Calcium.

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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: October 13 2004 at 11:02pm
To me that means just dump some in the sock in the sump.  But is this a good way to do it or am I just wasting it.


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 5:44am
I just dump some in my sump about twice a week.  It just dissolves so I don't see how you would be wasting it unless youcan see that it is percipitating out of the water or building up in your sock.  I picked up some of the peladow yesterday.  Wow what a big savings this will be for me.  $18 for 50lbs compared to Kents turbo calcium $392 FOR 50lbs ($55 for 7 lbs)

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jglover
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 8:16am
I like your method will.  hey john what exactlyis baked baking soda? and how exactly do you use it?


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 8:36am
It's one of the components of Reef Buffer.

-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 8:44am
When you bake baking soda it will change it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate.  Jon will correct me if I'm wrong.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 9:27am

Kevin's got it.

It doesn't really matter if sodium bicarb or sodium carbonate is used for alkalinity additives.  They both will equalibriate with atmospheric CO2 within hrs/days once added to your tank.  I use sodium carbonate because the intial mixture has a high pH and my tank suffers a bit from chronic low pH.  Many people actually mix the two together to get a mix that mixes up with RO water to pH of about 8.2.



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 9:31am
By the way you can buy sodium carbonate in the form of Arm & Hammer washing soda instead of baking it.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 9:41am

Kevin's right again.  I've used A&H Washing Soda too.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 11:01am
So have you figured out the proportoin of icemelt to washing soda to keep everything ballanced or do you just test alot?

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Jared Neilsen
Lehi, Utah


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 12:31pm
Here is what I do.  I use a mixture of 4 parts baking soda to 1 part washing soda.  On day 1, I add one full medicine cup (the kind like comes on nyquil , I think it is 30ml) On day 2, I add the same amount Kents turbo calcium (will start using the ice melt instead) I skip day 3 and start over on day 4.  This is for my 300g.  On my 72g, I only use about a fourth of the same cup and dose the same days.  I test about every 2 months and usually only have to make very slight adjustments if any at all.  I also use epson salts for magnesium when testing show I need it. This process keeps my alk at 12dkh, calcium at 440 and magnesium at 1300.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 12:33pm

If you're using Peladow and washing soda it is 1.05 grams of Peladow for each gram of washing soda... 1 to 1 is close enough for me.

I'm still using kalkwasser.  I just use the peladow and washing soda (baking soda) to nudge everything back up 'cause the kalk isn't keeping up.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 15 2004 at 1:30pm
Jon is probably right on the verge of building and using a Calcium Reactor. Am I right?

-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 15 2004 at 1:34pm

Yes a reactor is being drawn up in my head as I type, but...

I just made up some DIY B-ionic that I'm trying out.  I'll post about it after I've used it for a few weeks



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jglover
Date Posted: October 15 2004 at 1:57pm
Very informative post


Posted By: Crazy Tarzan
Date Posted: October 15 2004 at 2:03pm
Hey jon--can you use soda ash for pools?  We use it to keep the ph in the pool up where I work, and I noticed that it was just sodium carbonate, rather than sodium bicarbonate.  Also, how long do you need to bake baking soda to make it into washing soda?

-------------
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: October 15 2004 at 2:43pm

Theres no way to know what the impurities are in a bulk industrial soda ash product.  But you can be fairly sure that a food grade product is not going to have many toxins (i.e. if it's good enough for my belly, it's good enough for my corals).  So I use baking soda.  I spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake at 300F for about an hr.

Oh ya... I've also used Arm and Hammer Washing Soda without problems too.  It's not a food grade product, but in my experience it's ok.  But it's not as easy to find as baking soda.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jglover
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 10:51am
Gotta love old posts.

anyone know where to get some Dow Peladow brand ice melt now.

J


Posted By: fj40fax
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 11:43am
I just got 10 lbs of "Driveway Heat" at Home Depot $5.90.  It should last my 20g for a loooong time.

Fax


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Fax 318-3632
90g 2x250W 14kK MH
Sump, Fuge, G3, UV, O3, ACIII
Pleasant Grove, UT Across State Street from the Purple Turtle
Adjustments and Massages for Frags!


Posted By: Shane H
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 1:19pm
AutoZone also carries the Prestone Driveway Heat. Saw it on Saturday.


Posted By: Crazy Tarzan
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 8:47pm
autozone sells it for $7, but will be sending it back as soon and it looks like no more snow...

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Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing


Posted By: Gahlenfr
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 9:36pm
fj40x how much do you use on your 20g?


Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 9:56pm
Walmart has it in the Auto section.

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WMAS is da place!
Save the Banggai's!
Tooele,Ut.


Posted By: fj40fax
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 10:31pm

I test my calcium and then use the reef calculator to see how much to add.  the hard part was determining exactly how much water was in my tank.  I am still in the process of testing to see how much I use every day.  Every tank will use different amounts depending on what's in the tank, and how much Ca is used.

Fax



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Fax 318-3632
90g 2x250W 14kK MH
Sump, Fuge, G3, UV, O3, ACIII
Pleasant Grove, UT Across State Street from the Purple Turtle
Adjustments and Massages for Frags!


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 10:46pm
Gosh, I just pour it in like crazy.

-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: fj40fax
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 12:57pm

Test results are in.  I use about 10 ppm Ca and about 1dKH/day.  I also added an enteral feeding bag to slowly drip the baking soda in the tank.  It ands up being about a teaspoon or less so I just dissolve the baking soda in a cup or so of water and pour it into the bag.  It has a drip adjuster that is set at about 2 drops/sec.  It probably takes an hour or so to drip 8-10 oz of the mixture, no pH swings.  I am probably going to place and order from the supply house soon so if anyone wants one I will create another thread.

Fax 



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Fax 318-3632
90g 2x250W 14kK MH
Sump, Fuge, G3, UV, O3, ACIII
Pleasant Grove, UT Across State Street from the Purple Turtle
Adjustments and Massages for Frags!


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 9:27am
I just dissolve my baking soda in a cup of water and slowly pour it in a little
bit at a time. I don't have a ph Monitor so I don't know if I'm getting any
drastic swings but I haven't really noticed any ill effects. I add a full
tablespoon everyday for my 65g tank.

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 2:49pm
I don't dissolve either my baking soda or the ice melt.  I just dump about 1 tblsp in the sump of each every three days.  I don't add at the same time but probably could.  This is on my 72g. On my 300g I dump 3 tblsp into the sump.  I figure it is totally dissolved by the time it gets pumped into the tank.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: dlongmore
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 9:50pm
Just wondering if "Seachem - Reef Advantage Calcium" fits in this same category. Can I replace it with the Prestone driveway heat also. Also is there a method to calculate how much Prestone use. On the side of my Seachem bottle it says "Use 1 tsp per 40gal" twice a week.


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 10:33pm
Use this:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: fj40fax
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 10:48pm

The calculator is great.  Prestone driveway heat is Anhydrous CaCl2.  The Seachem product is also listed on the calculator.

Fax



-------------
Fax 318-3632
90g 2x250W 14kK MH
Sump, Fuge, G3, UV, O3, ACIII
Pleasant Grove, UT Across State Street from the Purple Turtle
Adjustments and Massages for Frags!


Posted By: meterman
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 5:59pm
Bump!
This was such an informative thread!  This club is great!
I just set up a new system, and needed to brush up on my Alk/Ca knowledge.  I found all I wanted to know.


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Alex


Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 6:34pm
I really need to buy some and soon.  Thanks for bumping this

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Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2



Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 7:15pm
It seems a lot of people are just using these additives in dry (powder) form and dosing that way... which kind of suprises me. Or did i read that wrong?
 
I prefer to make a solution for each of the additives:
 
 - 2 cups of Driveway Heat to a gallon of RO / DI (for Ca supplementation); the kids think it is so cool how the gallon jug starts to heat up upon mixing LOL
 
 - 2 cups of A&H Baking Soda / Washing Soda gallon of RO / DI ( for Alk)
 
- 1.5 cups Mag Chloride & .5 cup Epsom Salts gallon of RO / DI (for Mag)
 
 
Then I just dose 2 cups of solution per 100g of water volume... end up dosing Ca twice a week to keep in high 400's; Alk solution 3 X week to keep Alk around 10 dkH and pH around 8.1; Mag solution only once a month or so to keep Mag around 1300 ppm...
 
when a jug empties out I just make more and store them in my stand.


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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: ffc3
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 8:28pm
There were warnings about high bromine or bromide levels in Dow products produced after 2006 on RC, enough to scare me into not using it.

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Draper, UT

125 Reef


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by ffc3 ffc3 wrote:

There were warnings about high bromine or bromide levels in Dow products produced after 2006 on RC, enough to scare me into not using it.


I hadn't heard about that.  Do you have any links to threads (I tried searching, but their search engine is always too busy)?


-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 9:38pm
Jon,
 
Use Google (or your favorite search engine) and type something like "ReefCentral: dow bromide"
 
Mike


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Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 11 2007 at 10:51pm
interesting, this is going to hurt dow in the long run, I will make some phone calls tomorrow and find out what the process is for the supplier of calcium is that I can get for the pools. It is pool grade and has to be drinking quality, it is going into a pool.






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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 12:05am
Wow, I wish I could keep up with what's going on over on reefcentral.  This is disconcerting news:  http://www.reefwerks.com/media/August2005.pdf - http://www.reefwerks.com/media/August2005.pdf

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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 12:10am
Being food grade doesn't seem to help much either.
 
Mike


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Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 8:09am
it does seem to be the process that is making in safer. that is what I am going to try and find out.




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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 9:45am

update: the product that I currently have is from Dow, and probably has the higher levels  it has a lot #va17cc32 but the person that I spoke with did not know when they made the change, I also have informed our supplier that I would like to find a product that does not contain these higher levels, I'll update as soon as I can.

trouble is I would love to know if these bags are safe or if I should toss them on the ice.....

is there anyone that know how to decode the lot# and tell me when this was produced maybe I have some of the last known good supplies of this for a while.

 e-mail from DOW, Introduction
Historically, Dow�s calcium chloride
has typically contained less than
100 parts per million (ppm) of
bromide.  However, due to process
changes, calcium chloride
manufactured by Dow in 2007
and beyond is expected to contain
between 6000 and 8500 ppm
bromide. The purpose of this
communication is to inform
customers of potential impacts on
pool and spa treatments when
using Dow calcium chloride
containing such elevated levels of
bromide. 
The presence of bromide in pool
and spa water is not uncommon.
Bromide is present when
bromine-based disinfection
systems are used (BCDMH,
bromine/hypochlorite).  Sodium
bromide is sometimes used as an
algaecide treatment for pools.
Also, bromide is a natural
component of seawater and other
"natural" water sources that may
be used as source water in pools
and spas.  However, pool and spa
customers unfamiliar with the role
of bromide in pool water chemistry
and/or accustomed to using a
calcium chloride product with low
bromide content for water
hardness adjustment should be
aware of the following information.
Health-related Information
The disinfectants (chlorine-based,
bromine-based and ozone) used
to eliminate microbial hazards may
also react with other chemicals
in the water to form unwanted by-
products, known as disinfection
by-products (DBPs).  One such
DBPis bromate, which may form
when bromide is present in water
that is disinfected with ozone. 
The United States Environmental
Protection Agency (2001b) has
classified bromate (and its water
soluble salts) as a probable
human carcinogen by the oral
route of exposure under the 1986
EPAGuidelines for Carcinogen
Risk Assessment.  In the
publication titled, Guidelines for
safe recreational water
environments, Vol.2, Swimming
Pools and Similar Environments,
the World Health Organization
states, "Ozone can react with
residual bromide to produce
bromate, which is quite stable and
can build up over time (Grguric et
al., 1994).  This is of concern in
drinking water systems but will be
of lower concern in swimming
pools."1
Pool Maintenance-related
Information
When calcium chloride containing
bromide impurity is added to a
pool or spa using a chlorine-based
disinfecting system, a drop in free
chlorine may be observed.  For
pools that receive significant
exposure to sunlight, an increase
in chlorine consumption may also
be observed.  The magnitude of
these effects will depend on
specifics of each situation.
Summary
This information is provided in
good faith, representing the
current knowledge and
understanding of The Dow
Chemical Company on the
potential impacts of the expected
bromide impurity change on pool
and spa treatment applications.
Due to the complexity of pool
water chemistry and the wide
variety of possible application
scenarios, Dow does not purport
that the information above covers
every possible issue or impact.
For more detailed information on
this subject, refer to the World
Health Organization publication
cited above.  It is ultimately the
customer�s responsibility to
determine if calcium chloride with
elevated levels of bromide is
appropriate for water treatment
applications in pools and spas.
1
Guidelines for safe recreational water
environments, Vol.2, Swimming Pools
and Similar Environments, World Health
Organization, ISBN 92 4 154680 8, 2006,
p.68.


"



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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 9:54am
Thanks for the update Brian.
 
Mike


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Posted By: meterman
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 10:22am
So, these changes have been in effect since January of 2006.  What I want to know is who is still using the Dow product(s) and how are they working for you in your tank?  It appears to me people have been using the Dow products after this "Bromine/Bromide" change in 2005 with no ill effects in their system.  Should I use it, or not?

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Alex


Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 10:30am
I have been using for at least the last year, without knowing, Boomer over on reefcentral indicates that if you are doing a 35% /month water change that you would be fine, I am not at that level of water change and have not seen any detrimental effects, so who do we believe, the WHO indicates that it is not safe for drinking water, that is enough for me to not put it into a swimming pool.  My tank? it has been fine for a year now, but then again I have mostly been using kalk.


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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: jhodges
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 7:57am
anybody had experience with tetra flake or know a source in Utah since Dow is caput.
I too have been using the "bad" Dow.


Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 8:00am
I have been looking but have not found anything yet.



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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:52pm
Since Dow is such a major supplier of this stuff what are the chances that even the suppliers of the "real" aquarium brands are using the same higher bromide stuff in their products?


Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 11:07pm
probably real high, seeing as all of this happened last year sometime and we are just now hearing about it. It appears that the higher bromide when used with a oxidizer(ozone) will have a chlorine like effect, but not if we are doing up to a 35% wc/month, how much is dependent on how much of a water change and the build up of the bromine over time in our systems, now for a swimming pool the world health org, has stated that it is a possible carcinogen when used (the new stuff) in a swimming pool, and that it will affect the free chlorine levels. not good on either count.

I have asked the supplier for my pools to see if they can get a "non-DOW" supplier, they are looking into it.

what I was getting is also considered a "food Grade" what is the impact on us eating this stuff in our food!







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Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 11:34pm
Bromide levels in the thousands in a calcium chloride product will likely pose no health threat from a food perspective.  The real issue, in our aquariums and in your swimming pool, is that bromide quickly/easily converts over to bromine (or bromate) which is kind of bleach when it comes in contact with chlorine (in a pool) or ozone (in a reef tank).  Bromate is more stable then chlorate (or chlorine) so will spend more time floating around in the aquarium looking for something to oxidize.

Oh, and I really doubt the salt manufactures got caught with their pants down.  Dow sent that letter out to their "bulk" customers last year.  I'm sure the Marinelands/Oceanics/etc had time to find another supplier.  Now, whether or not they decided to do anything about it is open to debate.  Wink


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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 11:54pm

I'm glad to hear that our food should be safe, it does make me wonder if there has been any new testing on it, from a food safety aspect,  IMO the more oxidizer's in my pool the better, (less bacteria) it's the "possible" carcinogen that bothers me there.

help me with this thought, we inject ozone for a quick oxidizer, would the "extra" that we get from a bromine just grab the next bacteria in line, we are not hurting for enough of them, in a reef tank, and possibly help the system? then end result would it not be a higher redox? (anybody wanna try?)


now that I think of it, there are some systems and some home pool oxidizer's that are bromine/bromate  based.  I remember that there were test kits for it. The problem may come around when you mix chlorine and bromate? if I remember correctly those were not supposed to be mixed.

I also think that the Oceanics,Marinelands, will be fine, I was referring to the smaller company's that bottle the calcium products.







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Posted By: chris54
Date Posted: August 14 2009 at 2:55pm
where can get the peladow.. i found http://packandseal.com/c-574-peladow.aspx

is that a good price?


Posted By: snoyce
Date Posted: August 14 2009 at 4:06pm
Wow old thread.
 
That price seems reasonable, it is the shipping that will get you, 50 lbs to ship is never cheap.  I bet you can still get peledow in Salt Lake at janitors supply or waxie I think they charge around $30 for a 50lb bag, or thats what they charged a few years ago.
 
For aquairum use you really don't want pleadow anymore since they changed it.  I believe what you want to find is some of the Tetra branded calium chloride, they have a few different grades and the process they use does not have bromide in it.
 
here is their website
http://www.tetrachemicals.com/Products/Calcium_Chloride/Dry_Calcium_Chloride/Dry_Calcium_Chloride_Introduction.aqf - http://www.tetrachemicals.com/Products/Calcium_Chloride/Dry_Calcium_Chloride/Dry_Calcium_Chloride_Introduction.aqf
 
But I do not know where you can buy it around here


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Scott Noyce
90G reef ready AGA display
basment 20G sump, 29G fuge
4x54 watt T5 retro SLR
Octopus NW150


Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: August 22 2009 at 9:35pm
I use the Prestone Driveway Heat, I think it is called
 
Haven't noticed any ill effects from it
 
I picked up a couple of the "Homemade 2-Part" kits from Bulk Reef Supply and the "Calcium" bag looks like the exact same stuff...
 
 


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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 2:33pm
I have really been wanting some of these calcium supplements and not sure where to get them either. So, snoyce, you say that pelowdow is not good anymore? Why is that?

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Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum.


Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by BobC63 BobC63 wrote:

I use the Prestone Driveway Heat, I think it is called
 
Haven't noticed any ill effects from it
 
I picked up a couple of the "Homemade 2-Part" kits from Bulk Reef Supply and the "Calcium" bag looks like the exact same stuff...
 
 


Thats what I have been using for about 2 years as well


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Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2



Posted By: snoyce
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 10:50pm

I use Peladow and have not had any problems, but any Dow product after 2007 contains an elevated level of Bromide, many have used the new peladow, prestone driveway heat, without a problem but it is still basically uknown if elevated levels of bromide can cause problems and at what level you would start to have issues with it.

 
Randy on Reef central did post a chart that basically said if you do regular water changes it probably will not build up to a  unsafe level if you use the new peladow to supplement calcium in a fairly low demand tank.
 
from what I have gathered on reefcentral all the major manufactures of aquarium products most likely switched to tetra products because there process contains no bromide, so if you can find some that tetra produced it is safer.
 
I have seen peladow and what bulk reef supply sells and some off brand icemelt that sams club sales cheap, and they all look the same to me visually so I don't think you can say what you have by looking at it


-------------
Scott Noyce
90G reef ready AGA display
basment 20G sump, 29G fuge
4x54 watt T5 retro SLR
Octopus NW150



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