Going simple with a Large Tank?
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Topic: Going simple with a Large Tank?
Posted By: vadryn
Subject: Going simple with a Large Tank?
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 4:43pm
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Let me set the table, and then post the questions on my mind.
April 1, I put water in my 90g tank that I converted from FW to SW. That was my first and since then, my only experience with SW. The 90g is a standalone with no sump or fuge. I have about 6" of Utah sand, plenum, and approx. 150# of LR. My lights are 4 x 96w PC. I started with, and top off with, tap water. I did my first water change this week, so about 7 months with out a water change.
My tank settled in after the initial cycle and has been solid ever since. My measurements have been extremely consistent, my livestock has done quite well, IMO, corals and fish alike. I'm keeping a Kole Tang, Blue Hippo Tang, Tomato Clowns (pair), Red Firefish, Purple Firefish, Bengaii Cardinal, Sixline Wrasse, Blue Flasher Wrasse, Lawnmower Blenny, Bluespot Jawfish, as well as a Longspine Urchin and the usual suspects in a cleanup crew.
I know that by SW standards my tank is still young. To be honest, I have been a bit surprised at how well this has gone. Without having a Protien Skimmer, UV, Dosing of any kind, RO Water, T5 or MH lights, Refugium... It's re-raised the questions about how much of this stuff is "needed" to keep a good SW tank as long as you have good LR, LS and flow.
I have had the conversion of my 225g tank to SW in the back of my mind, but have been scared off mostly by the anticipated expense. $600 - $1000 for lights, $300 for a skimmer, Salt for regular water changes, dosing systems... etc etc. So here's the questions.
If I convert my 225 to SW, can I expect good success with regards to the health and stability of the tank if I follow the basic model of lots of LR, Sand and great flow? The bigger tank would automatically mean a refugium with macro algae etc, but does simple still work for a large tank like it does for my 90g?
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Replies:
Posted By: john hill
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 5:11pm
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i think that you are going to have to up the water changes on your 90 for now it is doing great but as time goes no crap starts to build up and them on comes the problems even with the big skimmers and reufgems and all that jazz you still cant keep adding food and not taking out waste ------------- out with the large and in with the nano |
Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 6:12pm
| I love to read posts about people who are successful with simple tanks without all the bells and whistles that we all think we need but probably dont. I say set up the 225 just like you did the 90. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 8:11pm
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You can certainly duplicate your 90g on a larger scale and be successful while keeping it "simple". I think your grasp of the concepts of the need for LS / LR and good flow will go a long way.
Your choice of corals will probably dictate expenses on things like lighting, skimmer (or not) more than fish will. In any event, even if you were to "upgrade" to say, halide lighting, you don't need to spend $1000 on lights. I bought my (2) 400w setups used, here on the Board, for around $300 total. If you don't feel the need to have high light demanding corals like SPS you could drop down to a pair of 250w lights with decent reflectors and ballasts and find that for sale here on the board for (I'd guess) around $200 - $225. IMO 250s would be just fine for any soft corals, zoas, etc. and probably most LPS corals as well.
Ksl.com has a great "fish" classifieds section as well.
Things like Korallia or Maxijet pumps go up on the board here all the time; usually around half of the cost of new. Same goes for heaters, rock and sand, etc.
I'll go on record as saying that, depending on what you want to keep as far as sensitive livestock goes, you could do it both skimmerless and sumpless and still have a great looking setup...
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: thefu
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 8:55pm
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I think John Hill's point about waste build up should be considered. I know that there is a ton of detritus that can build up in a tank regardless of how good your CUC is. Also I think their are a lot of things that fish and soft corals are tolerant of that SPS and other sensitive species would not be. I am sure both your existing 90 and your proposed 225 would do fine without a skimmer or other fancy stuff with the right livestock choices, but I think its about balancing risk. Your chances are better IMO with and RDP refugium with macro, a skimmer, a controller, etc. Can your car run just fine on 3 quarts of oil...sure, but don't go up hills, run the engine hard, or burn even a little bit of that oil or you will be in big trouble, and in the long run your engine life decreases from extra heat, etc....in other words, less margin of error and longevity even though the car seems to operate just fine. |
Posted By: sanddune600
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:02pm
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I think most of your success is flow the more flow going everywhere the less crap settles in the sand and the better food ect stays in the water colum the longer fish have a chance to eat it and having cheato in a sump is a great way to remove waste especially metal and other things from tap water
------------- Andy Jorgensen My number is four three 5 7 six four 8 0 three four |
Posted By: thefu
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:05pm
| Can you post pics of the 90? What kind of corals do you have in it? What are you using for flow? |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:28pm
i agree. Its just a matter of time before you start crashing waiting 7 months in between water changes with no skimmer plain and simple. Especially if you plan on keeping more fish and corals other than softies. Everyone likes to say how well their tanks are doing and they dont do water changes.... but somehow they never brag about it after the crash ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
john hill wrote:Posted By: john hill
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:10am
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here is a better way of saying would you like living in a tank with on filtration no water change swimming in your own crap
i would not
------------- out with the large and in with the nano |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 1:47am
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There are many different ways to have a successful reef. I was told that the systems I use wouldn't work and that I would be putting my livestock at risk if I tried using the Hiatt System. I researched the system as well as what the livestock I planned to keep required for optimum health. Then I made sure I could test and verify that the parameters I needed to maintain were actually being met and made backup plans in case things didn't work out.
Do you need a protein skimmer, plenum, MH Lights, a sump, refugium,..., maybe, maybe not but you do need to plan for how your are going to deal with waste, lighting, flow, and water quality so that the animals you care for have their needs met.
When I plan out a system I get input from everyone I can then decide how I am going to proceed. Those who have been in the hobby for a while are a great source of information and are happy to help and advise but not everyone with a successful tank does things the same way. Once you decide on a course of action monitor it closely to make sure your system is performing within your goals. Ask yourself in advance if something goes wrong how will I deal with it. Go slow stocking the tank and monitor it for changes as you change the bio-load.
If you plan well and have contingency plans for things that could go wrong, then put in the time to properly maintain the system you should be fine. You may find that some methods and equipment mean less maintenance and time you have to spend on the tank. Simplicity and stability were major goals of mine when I set up my tanks and they have paid off well for me. Because I am away from my tanks for days at a time I decided not to go with a sump or refugium that might flood my house when I was away and opted for all in one designs. Automation was also important for water top off and feeding. While my tanks are still young compared to many, the plans I have made have worked well. There have been a few modifications to the original plan and a few close calls but overall things have gone smoothly and I learned from the mistakes and make corrections as needed.
Bottom line is if you plan properly you can have a large tank without much of the expensive equipment that some use. It may mean more maintenance and trade offs in what livestock and coral you keep but you can have a beautiful yet simple tank if you plan properly and then follow through with proper maintenance.
------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 9:22am
What is filtration if it's not the circle of life in our little ecosystems. The natural reduction of N and S compounds in LS and LR is at least 70% of the filtration of a successful reef aquarium. I believe that the other 30% is handled by algae growth on all surfaces and in the LW.
Vadryn's experience with his simple reef is not unique. He seems to have the right setup for success. We all agree that more water is better so how could a larger tank set up simply be any different.
If he does decide to enjoy the benefits of an RDP Refugium, taking all safety precautions into mind, he will have even more fun with the increase in diversity growing in his upgraded tank.
Water changes are over-rated. I have been telling this to WMAS hobbyists forever, though I wouldn't recommend going more than 6 months between water changes in a 90. I would assume Vadryn has been using AC.
 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 9:50am
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There were a few questions scattered amongst the repsponses - so let me elaboratea bit.
I am running AC - need up refresh it, actually, but I have been running about 4#.
I have a Fluval FX5 and 405 canister running (no media, just AC). That's 900 GPH flow and then I have a Koralia 4 and a Maxijet 1200 (mod) in there giving me quite a bit more. I estimated somewhere around 25x flow.
I don't have anything against water changes. I'm running an FX5 canister which I have confirmed makes removing and adding water very easy. I don't like that all the coraline above the waterline on my water change turned white.
My corals are 95% softies and will probably remain as such. Xenia, Mushrooms, Palys etc. I have a Plate Coral and a small CandyCane, so it isn't all softies, but mostly. Corals will be less of a feature in the 225 as I am interested in doing Lionfish, Triggers, Large Tangs etc. More of a FOWLR tank... but with "some" corals.
The 225g currently is FW and has a sump. I will defintely use that and in fact, want to expand the sump to have an external refugium to grow mangrove as a houseplant to the side of the tank.
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Posted By: thefu
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 10:13am
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Mark, I would be interested in seeing a 50%+ SPS tank run under the conditions above because I have never seen a successful SPS tank run like that. This is why I think it is so important to understand the livestock needs. Soft corals will thrive in a dirtier environment. Nothing against them, its just that they are much more tolerant and even need the extra crap in the water. When my tank became more clean and more fit for SPS, the result was less soft corals (xenia, anthelia, etc.), they did not like it and withered away. I think you will be fine with the reduced mechanical filtration and skimming but I think you will not be fine with 6+month intervals on water changes eventually. Another aspect that the water changes help with is bumping up the elements so you don't have to dose as much or at all. Everyone is different in what they like. If you stick to the same livestock set up for the 225 and up the water changes I think it will be fine long term.
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Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 10:56am
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Hi Terrance,
I'm starting to think there are ways of growing SPS in tanks without skimmers and other expensive equipment. When I got into the hobby I read about recommendations for heavy skimming, low nutrients and so on to be successful with SPS. I am beginning to find out that adequate light and flow are more important than the amount of nutrients you can skim from the tank.
I stocked my Nano with mostly LPS and Softies as a result but have been adding SPS recently to see how they do. So far I have added Millipora, Monticap, and Birdnest SPS to my Nano which has no skimmer, fuge, or sump. I haven't even been running AC regularly but my LPS have all done fine and appear to me to be growing rapidly.
I think that Flow may be the most important part of the equation as was suggested at Reef Fest. Even if the water parameters are a little high if the flow is sufficient for the respiration of the coral allowing them to export waste and import nutrition the coral seem to do well.
I am able to support and get good growth of Xenia, Clove Polyps, Kenya Trees, Star Polyps, Button Polyps, Mushrooms, Zoos, Euphilia Monticap, Millipora, Birdnest, acans, leather and candy canes all in the same 28G Nano without a skimmer sump or fuge. I recently moved most of my Xenia to the clown tank to make more room for SPS but the Xenia were thriving in my mixed tank along with SPS and PC lighting.
I'm planning on picking up some acropora today to add to the mix. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 11:07am
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Yes, the hobbyist that wants to keep mostly SPS definitely ought to invest in a skimmer, but in my experience, most hobbyists are not like that. Here you go Terrence: No skimmer, no Ca Reactor, no controller, frag tank connected to main tank and ~50% SPS
 Connected to the RDP Refugium, 2-3 mo wc's, gallons of supplements added regularly
 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: dew2loud1
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:09pm
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There are obviously many approaches to handling tanks of all sizes, What this discussion is clearly missing are solid numbers, what are your nitrates, phosphates etc,? You can run a skimmerless system with no reactors etc, and keep nitrates below 20 and phosphates fairly low if you have a decent mechanism for export and a low feeding regime, On the opposite end i've seen people running zeo and crazy amounts of equipment who struggle with keeping nitrates below 60 because of terrible feeding practices. Also from the most recent study out skimmers remove 10-18% of dissolved organics, activated carbon however removes over 80% so running 4lb of carbon creates a much lower nutrient environment than a $500 skimmer, its just very expensive to continually replace especially on a big tank. As far as water changes, your goal is to dilute accumulating nitrates and add supplementation of important ions, ca mg etc If low levels of nitrates are accumulating and you are dosing supplements/and or your demand is very low you can easily go many months without water changes. Next time do a couple tests and see where your levels are prior to a water change and after. For our tanks we feed very heavy and have a lot of bioload so large nutrient exports (extremely large skimmer, refugium, water changes) are very necessary in our system, but maybe not in yours. For most hobbyists especially with smaller tanks i feel telling them to not do water changes for several months is not good advise. If they are doing this they should be monitoring levels important to their system. For most new hobbyists and those with smaller tanks its just easier to do a 10-20 gallon water change a couple times a month. |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:28pm
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Here are my current numbers for my Nano 28G 8 months old. Hiatt System of nutrient export.
No sump, Skimmer, Refugium
Auto Feeder Daily
105 watts CF lighting
Auto Top Off using Kalkwasser in RODI Water
Water Changes 5 G Monthly.
Vida Rock LR Substitute.
3" DSB
Mixed Reef
Lightly dose AquaVitro Fuel and Vibrance
Fish 2 Cinnimon Clowns, 2 Green Cromis, 1 Lubbock Wrasse
Cleaner Shrimp and emerald crab in addition to basic clean up crew of snails and hermits.
Salinity 1.024
PH 8.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0 Nitrate2.5
Calcium 450
Magnesium 1320
Phosphate .5
Todays Picture
 This is by no means a large tank but results should be duplicatable ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: thefu
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:51pm
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Mark, I have no idea what that first pic is supposed to mean, but it looks nothing like any frag tank or display tank I have ever seen. What is all that stuff between the frags? The second tank has an RDP and 2-3x as frequent water changes as what he is describing and it does not exactly seem to be SPS heavy and it seems to have a hardier species like Bali green slimer from what I can tell. Burts tank is working well because he is getting rid of nutrients by 20-25% water changes monthly as well as AC. My point still is that of Dew2loud1 which is its about nutrient export and the ability of the species in the tank to survive in higher nutrients and dirtier water. Also, I think that while it CAN be done raising SPS in an environment like this, it is just riskier. |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 4:07pm
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I think the whole point of vardyn's post's are to find out if it is possible to have a beautiful tank at a minimum expense. The answer is yes. You don't have to have all the latest gadgets, bells and whistles on your tank to make it work if you are willing to put the extra effort into maintaining and monitoring the tank. In other words just because a hobbyist doesn't have the finances to put in the latest equipment will not prevent him from succeeding. It will take more work, more research and he will have to develop the skills to tell what is going on in the tank without the use of that equipment. The cost of setting up a reef is what kept me form setting one up years ago. With what has been learned about the hobby over the years it is now fairly simple to set up a FOWLR Tank only slightly more difficult to set up a reef with softies and some LPS and as a hobbyist gains experience they can even keep SPS in a fairly low tech tank. There's no doubt that the extra equipment makes maintaining water quality and stability easier, safer, and extend control to the hobbyist even when they are not at their tank but prospective hobbyists don't have to shy away from the hobby for because of the cost. I think that those who are able to successfully maintain low teck tanks should be accepted and encouraged to share their experience as it may help bring others into the hobby that would not have otherwise tried it.------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: thefu
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 4:53pm
You are spot on, but it is always good to know what someone's definition of beautiful is and their expectations. If someone's definition is a RC SPS TOTM, then I don't think this methodology is going to work long term. Secondly, I think that if more people could lessen their risk a bit by not trying to push the envelope, then there would be less turnover in the hobby due to less tank crashes. I think the car analogy I made above best illustrates what I mean. Now Vadryn, get that 225 rockin' and lets see it!
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Posted By: Roy
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 10:53pm
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bfessler that is a beautiful tank! ------------- 90 gal Corner with / 200 gal sump. |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:12am
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Somone asked for Pics - so these are current as of yesterday (Nov 14)
http://www.vadryn.com/images/swnov09a.jpg">
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Posted By: dew2loud1
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:20am
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I think a lot of the success is due to having a deep sand bed, IMO they are ticking time bombs. They do an amazing job at handling a lot of waste and provide tons of anaerobic filtration but eventually like any septic system they fill up. I've seen it take years, but you're one big stir of the sand bed away from a ton of sulfide gas release. But i like bare bottom tanks so i'm crazy anyway |
Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:35am
The xenia, kenya, leathers, and shrooms look like they're in heaven. Bring on the grime lol. Obviously SPS wouldnt like being in there, but if youre going to make the 225 mostly a FOWLR tank, you should be fine. If you added a skimmer, it would probably clean up the red and brown algae films on the back and sandbed. Nice tank thou. I just love those bluespot jawfish. I need to get me one of those 
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:43am
| So - Do I need more than a half-dozen nesarrius snails to stir up my sandbed? The jawfish keeps stuff moving around in some areas, but should I get a starfish or more snails that'll keep churning the sand? |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:50am
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Thanks for the pics Vardyn. If your shooting for the same type of look on the 210 I'm sure you'll do just fine with the same techniques you are currently using. The xenia, Kenya trees, mushrooms and other softies are great additions to the filtration of the tank and thrive on nutrient rich water. Dew2loud1,
I agree with the DSB Time Bomb analogy if the sand bed is simply left to gather waste and is not serviced properly. I stir my sand bead around the edges weekly because I don't like the look of accumulating waste at the glass and then stir portions of the rest of the bed once a month. This brings up all kinds of stuff that feed the corals and keep the sand bed healthy. It's easy to stir the bed all the way to the bottom with a turkey baster. I was a little afraid of doing it at first and bringing all the gunk up into the water column but every time I do the corals look better than ever the next day. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 10:56am
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Just get a turkey baster and fill with tank water. Then hold it an inch or so from the sand bed and blast it. Like I said in the last post I do the edges frequently and the center less often. If I had a large tank I would do the edges weekly and then about 1/4 of the sand each week so you're not disturbing the entire sand bed at one time. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 11:02am
| Cerith snails do an awesome job at stirring the sandbed and they will also clean the rocks and glass. There are also several kinds of gobies that do the same. |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: November 15 2009 at 2:33pm
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I second Burt's post. I use the turkey baster method in my tank to stir the sand bed in both my display and my refugium. It puts out all sorts of goodies for the corals, clams, sponges, and feather dusters. It's cheap and easy. I got my basters from the dollar tree 2 for a buck. I use one to stir the sand and I attached a stiff tube to the end of the other so I can target feed all my corals without getting wet. ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 9:31am
I wouldn't expect that you had. Could you please try to be less critical/judgemental until you have been at this hobby a lot longer?
The first pic I posted is not the best of that tank. I'm sorry I don't have that setup any more so that you could come see it. I'll try to post more pics. That tank was not set up for looks, btw.
Also, in my experience, the fear of NS2 gas destruction is making a mountain out of a molehill. Certainly a hobbyist using a very deep sand bed must be cautious and avoid stirring the whole deep bed, but a little stirring, even deep stirring in a select spot is not going to cause any problem. The only time I ever had a problem was when I tore down a tank and the one fish I hadn't caught/hadn't seen, died immediately when the entire sand bed was disturbed.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 4:30pm
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First off , I think Travis' setup looks pretty good
I think the main deterrent to adding SPS in his current 90g is not lack of a skimmer but rather the lighting (not that there is anything wrong with it) because if my memory is correct he is using PC lighting... so if he was to put a few digi or monti cap frags in it they would need to be way high up on the rockwork.
My only criticism would be that I would still do some partial water changes every month or so. I don't know if Travis' comments meant that he has gone 7 months without a WC and plans to not do any in the future, or maybe he was just questioning the logic of doing frequent WCs when his tank has been up for 7 months without any.
To do it "on the cheap", go out and get an 18g rubbermaid tote to hold the new water (for around $5 at WalMart) then all you need is a small heater and a maxijet type powerhead to heat / mix the new water and you're set for WCs. The salt cost shouldn't be too prohibitive; if you change 10g per month (plenty for your setup) a 160g salt bucket will last close to 1 1/2 years before you need to buy salt again. IMO, $25 - 30 per year for salt is not a prohibitve expense; you are probably spending more than that yearly for the carbon in the canister.
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 5:07pm
| You are right on the Water Change. I've found that with my FX5 I can remove and replace the water in my tank with very little effort using the unit's hoese and pump. Worked very slick. I'm not opposed to doing WC on a regular basis, and in fact plan on 10g monthly now. I also am going to get a bunch more sandsifting critters as well as a turkey baster. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 7:17am
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The best sand cleaner is a Sand Sifting Cucumber (or two) in that tank. Stay away from the SSStars because they eat the life in the sand. One SSStar can ruin a large live sand bed within 4 months. They are useful in a really dirty sand bed but should be removed after a month or two and replaced with cukes. Yours does not appear to be a really dirty sand bed.
Thanks to Burt for sharing his success with sand bed maintenance. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 8:16am
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Yesterday my nine year old was pointing out the little critters that were alive and moving in the little pockets of space in the sandbed (pods, right?) Now there's one HUGE advantage to not cleaning the front glass (below the sand line) too much.
That's great to know about the SS Star. I will steer clear and get another cuke. This place I'm going to order from has "cleaner clams" and "sand sifting crabs" both of which stir up the sand but don't eat the beneficial life there.
With my tank being about 8 months old, should I still look to add new LR or LS to get "new" microscopic life added to the mix?
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Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 8:48am
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It's probably not necessary to add new LR or LS at this point as every time you add something to your tank you get some new life. If you really want to add diversity you could swap a cup or so of sand with a friend but be aware that if there is a nuisance in his tank you may be bringing it to yours as well.
If you like the look of dirty sand at the front glass then by all beans don't clean it. You can still show off the creatures that live in the sand with your kids by looking at the tank with a flashlight in the dark. You'd be surprised how many things come out in the dark. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 11:48am
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Cleaner clams and cleaner crabs...I don't believe those claims as regarding cleaning the sand and I would check them out and ask here before buying. Someone here has probably already had some experience with them. For example, you can buy live saltwater mussels and clams at the grocery store that clean the water as they siphon it for food. They don't last very long, starving within a year because our tankwater is not dirty enough.
When I worked at MSM (Mountain Shadow Marine in Centerville), with easy access to uncured LR fresh from the ocean at the employee discount, occasionally I brought home small pieces of the best LR, adding it's diversity to my system. It was great.
I know, I'm the guy that pushes LBTR to help save the wild reefs and here I was adding some wild LR to my system.  It was only a little bit and then after it had shared it's diversity in my system, I shared it with other hobbyists here in the WMAS. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 12:06pm
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I keep getting told how "nutrient rich" my tank is, given my setup, so I am not sure I'm going to be starving a filter-feeder... but I don't know. The Clams are from Florida, so they aren't cold water varieties at least. The Crabs are filter feeders that burrow in the sand. Neither of those feed from the sandbed, but both would disturb the sand, which is the desired affect.
There are disadvantages to having a deep sand bed and an OCD Bluespot Jawfish. Stuff that doesn't move doesn't stay on top of the sand bed for long as he continually excavates. I think I need to get a bunch of rubble and put in there to help define and end to his expansive digging.
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Posted By: sanddune600
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 1:03pm
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I had one of those clams I put it in the corner of my tank and it stayed in the same spot for a year they DONT move in the sand or any where really he was in a 28g nano I sold him with the tank though also from the pics I wouldnt say that you have lots of excess waste if you did your tank would be growing algea and the sand would look alot more murky imo ------------- Andy Jorgensen My number is four three 5 7 six four 8 0 three four |