I know this doesn't help, but I bet Mark and I are thinking the same thing.... there is a some underlying problem of bigger concern.  You may or may not be able to save these fish, but I would be looking at the rest of the tank health first.

Oh yah, and I used the GNC bottle of garlic pills.

Adam

Sorry that the NMI didn't work for you. I worked like a charm the two times that I needed it. As for the heat... how high? I am at 84-85 during the day no matter what I do and I don't have any issues with Ich. Of course, it's always in the system but weakened fish are more susceptible. Hhmmm... weird. Wish you the best.

How about trying a couple Gobiosoma oceanops (neon goby).  They eat parasites off of the other fish.  We have one with yellow stripes.  He keeps the white spots off our biocolor anthias harem.  And like to nibble on my arm whenever I have it in the tank.

I talked to a Dr. Prescott at the http://www.fishvet.com - www.fishvet.com - the company that sells Marine No Ich.  He asked me if my fish look better in the morning or worse.  I told him they look better.  He told me to leave all the lights on in the system for 3 days because cryptocarion (one of three kinds of ich) is diurnal.  I asked if that meant it was photosynthetic.  He said no, it basically means they need a day and night cycle to survive and thrive.  So he said to leave the lights on for 3 days, also dosing the tank every single day until I am "quite sure that it has definitely improved," then dose every other day until I'm sure it's cured.  Then dose 3 more times just to be sure. 

I have two dead hydnoporas since the start of this.  My anemone is very unhappy, and the directions say to not run the skimmer or any carbon.  I cheated and ran the skimmer for 2 days just to see if that might finally help.  I have 3 kinds of garlic going on, and about to buy a fourth.  I'm waiting for the fish to jump out and holler, "CAN WE GET SOME REAL FOOD - - WITHOUT GARLIC?!"  But really the tank looks all right.  Oh, the chalk basslett with the infected eye is still kicking.  Not eating much, though. 

What do we think of Dr. Prescott's advice?  Do they sell Marine No-Ich in a 5 gallon variety?  Ugh.

Oh, I forgot.  We tried to catch Lucky to dip him.  We didn't stress them out, but it was very obvious that he will not be caught.  I tried tricking him with food + net a few times.  He's smart.

Neon goby?  More cleaner shrimp? UV sterilizer?  I can't kill my clam, though!  He needs phyto.  Others need the phyto too, I think.

The bottle I have sitting here is $40.  I've used 5 of them.  It doesn't say what it treats - just that its ingredients are:  "5-nitroimidazoles." 

So for tonight I'll leave the lights on, and hit them with garlicky food in the morning.  I hope the lack of darkness doesn't stress them out.  Would a gradual change in the salinity help?  Like I said before, all water parameters are still good.  Which is kind of amazing, cuz the skimmer seems to pull a lot of stuff out.  Let me know your thoughts on the Uber No Ich plan, please? 

I'm curious to hear what Mark says about this.  Somehow I think he and I are thinking along the same lines.  We tend to agree on this subject.

Renee, don't read this next part because it isn't what you want to hear....

(everyone else- I think the fish aren't going to cope well with the fishvet suggestions, and I don't like the suggestions at all.  this looks to me like more changes, more stress, more money wasted, and more problems to come)

Adam

Renee/Damon,

I cannot remember, but I thought that there was a guarantee on the No-Ich Marine. I can't remember, but I would definately push the issue. Maybe they will give you some for free since you've spent so much in the medication. Also, double-check the dosage and make sure that you're using the "severe infestation" dosage.

I would also question them about the hydnoporas. That stuff isn't supposed to affect corals or inverts. I don't know... sounds like something is going on that isn't quite normal IMO.

I also agree with Diana, the fish will be OK with the lights on (watch the temp) since there's room to hide in the rocks. Maybe they'll think it's cool like when my kids turn the lights back on after we put them in bed.

Reefobsessed,

I like you post.  I like it because it causes me to think.  I don't like buying quarantined fish.  I know a lot of the local stores copper some of their systems, and I don't buy the fish from those systems.  I wonder if people would really support stores that QT fish ahead of time. 

I can tell you this, people wouldn't be willing to pay more for their fish.  Remember, we aren't normal people (Duh, I know) and the vast majority of customers out there want cheaper prices above all.

Adam

I know a lot of the local stores copper some of their systems, and I don't buy the fish from those systems.

Really?  I would have bet lots of money that every LFS keeps their fish in coppered systems.  Why would you be against that practice?

I'm not really against it.  I do see good coming from it.  But, here is what I do.  When I go to Bird World, I buy fish from the invert system, not the fish sytem.  When I go to Fish 4 U I buy fish from those invert tanks, not the other tanks.  From The Sea and The Aquarium also have some invert systems, so that is where I look.  I don't know about Aquatica, I need to go there, it has been a while and I like that store a lot.

I'm sure not everyone does this, but I do.  Also, I believe those fish are HEALTHIER than the fish in the other tanks.  I know people will disagree with me on this, and that is okay.  I would rather have a fish which is accustomed to the reef tank type of water.

Adam

The only way you can assure yourself that you have properly quarantined fish is to quarantine them yourself.

Even if a store offered quarantine fish this doesn't guarantee anything, plus it would be impractical for a pet store to have a separate tank for each fish.

Plus, quarantine tanks are easy and cheap to setup.

Adam,  one thing I was also wondering about is any particular fish's tolorance of copper.  I'm sure copper is harder on some species of fish then others.  But...

Buying fish as you suggest really limits your choices doesn't it?  The fish in the LFS invert systems tend to be small (i.e. pseudotrophus, gobies, blennys, ect).

(edit:  Arjen posted before I did.  You're of the opinion that ionic copper (i.e. copper sulfate, not a chelated copper) is of no concern to any fish regardless of species?)

Jon,

Well I'm not an expert in fish disease by any means, but I have studied fish for a long time.  I'm not sure about how it affects some fish as opposed to others.  I do know this, laterraly compressed fish with overly exposed surfaces (tangs, butterflies, angels) have a higher risk of parasite diseases.  It is also more important for them to have strong immune systems for that reason. 

Sooooo.... I think to explain both sides of the debate.  Arjen is correct that a fish in a coppered tank is parasite free.  So they don't have disease (which Reefobsessed likes the idea of as well) to bring into your tank. 
However, I will disagree with one sentence in Arjen's post, in that I do believe Copper has long effects on fish.  I do believe it is problematic for gill filaments, and also hurtfull to the immune system in fish.  In Arjen's defense, he may not have fish in his tanks long enough to acquire those problems.  Assuming that is, that I'm right and that there may be problems.  For me, I like the idea of a fish who is using its immune system.

So I guess this another one of those endless and somewhat pointless debates.  In the end you have to just do whatever you want, which for most people is buy the prettiest fish, even if it is in a tank filled with mud.

Adam

(Jon- here are my fish, lots of variety, all from non-coppered tanks, and I'll even list stores, which I don't like to do)
Convict Tang- Marine Aquatics
Wrasse- Hand Caught
Yellow Tang- Hand Caught (Terry)
Morish Idol- Bird World
Lavendar Tang- Marine Aquatics
Flame Angel- Marine Aquatics
Seahorse- Fish 4 U
Clownfish- ReefSaver

I always use a chelated copper, but copper sulfate can be used safely IMO (some scaleless and small scaled fish excluded), but only at very low levels.

For the home quarantine tank you may want to try cupric sulfate.  It is safer then copper sulfate and it is not chelated so more effective then chelated coppers.

This is an interesting discussion.  Thanks for all the info.

Jake, I though cupric sulfate was copper sulfate, just a different (latin ) name.  i.e. CuSO4.  copper in the plus two state, Cu(II).  I wonder if I've forgotten something.

Jon,

I think you are right now that I think of it.  Copper sulfate and cupric sulfate are synonyms.

Hold.........okay.  What I should have said is:

"For the home quarantine tank you may want to try Cupramine.  It is safer then copper sulfate and it is not chelated so more effective then chelated coppers."

JimL wrote:     Daily fresh water baths is also one the best treatments. If your fish can tolerate long FW baths (the better). It cleans the cysted cryptocaryon right off of them. The cysts literally explode.      It's great if you can catch the fish. And... most fish will take a 3-5 min FW bath just fine.

I completely agree.  I have had very good luck with freshwater baths.  The only problems I have had are with very sick fish.  Sometime a freshwater bath will push them over the edge and they will end up dieing.

I like the points Jim made with those specific fish.  Very good info. 

Also, I completely agree with Jake.  I too, like freshwater dips, and I think it will save a lot of fish, and push the rest over the edge. I do a quick dip on my fish all the time.  Mainly because I am lazy.  So every once in a while I dump like 1 gal to 2 gals of freshwater in my 30 gal.  My top off system works because when the powerheads are shotting out of the top of the tank, then I know I need to add water. I do this and the fish rush to the top thinking I am going to feed them.  For about 30 seconds they are just swimming there in that hazy freshwater layer on the top.

Not the best top off practice I know, but at least I'm honest about it.

Adam

A UV sterilizer has been one recommendation.  Is there anyone who has one that I can borrow?  Aquatic Dreams said they could get an 18 watt one for me, but that wouldn't arrive until next week.  One near Ogden would be really nifty, but I can drive for it.  I'm wondering if I should be asking you guys about a fish trap, as well.  One that would fit an achille's tang.  I just can't catch these guys - especially on my own.  Damon and I couldn't catch them before he left for training, but that was when we thought the Marine No Ich might be working. 

Third idea - what if I suctioned off 3 to 5 gallons of water, and replaced it with R/O water.  I keep doing this gradually, until the salinity is down to 1.019 or so.  I checked on the anemone this morning and he fell apart.  Split in half when I first touched him, and then pieces started coming off.  I kept him in a bowl, and asked PC Pondbuilder's opinion.  I was hoping for a miracle.  Tracy said he was toast.   Oh, what an awful way to start the day at 05:30.  New house rule... no anemones... at least not ritteri.

Thanks for your thoughts!

- Fish Trap -

Take a two liter pop bottle, cut off the top, flip it around and alakazam!  A fish trap!

We just put some food in ours and it worked great.  You might have to catch several of the other fish before you can get you intended target.  And you will have to cut then entrance hole larger for a tang to fit in.

Also important;  Get the trap up and the fish out as quickly as possible so that it doesn't hurt itself thrashing around inside.    Good luck.

Here is a diagram of the trap.  I drew it myself

I love your diagram Jared!!  I saw the post the first time without it.  I'll work on creating a trap, and I'll let you know how it works. 

Jim, I could really use your 10g, air pump & heater.  I have two air pumps that function, but I haven't tried them out long term.  I'll give you a call tomorrow.  There's just no way I can think straight to start this tonight.  I'm wiped out.  Swam a couple of miles at the gym today.  Ugh.  Thank you!!!!

I caught Lucky in the fish trap!  So now I have several options, and thought I'd ask what you think. 

1)  I could treat the hospital tank with Marine No Ich (for 14 days according to the bottle). 

2) Jim Lee very kindly left me his bottle of Quick Cure - ingredients are Formalin and Malachite Green.  It doesn't say how long to treat marine fish, but its freshwater instructions say up to 5 days.

3)  I purposely made the hospital tank a lower salinity than the tank he came from.  Our main tank is 1.023, and the hospital tank is 1.021.  I've been really gradually acclimating him, and almost all of his ich has fallen off his body.  I did this to try to eliminate the need for a freshwater dip. 

4) Should I still freshwater dip him? 

5) Should I use a combination of the above approaches?  Like lower salinity plus a medication?  Or ??

Thanks very much!

Renee

I would go with a salinity of 1.018 or so, and use copper or formalin or malachite or something like that.  I would avoid the freshwater dip since you have the dropped salinity and aren't putting him back in the tank soon. 

Add stress coat maybe?  Still feed with garlic?

Adam 

Jim, sounds like I've managed to really irritate you.  Sorry to hear that.  Like I said yesterday, I'm not comfortable with freshwater dipping.  I've only had these fish since late December.  Once I've been doing this for a while, I'm sure FW dipping will be no big deal.  I don't know what to look for, and as you said - "if they're just sitting still, you've got to stir them up and get them moving around."  Well, to my inexperienced ears, that sounds like something I can't do to a fish that's already put up with me dosing him with chemicals that I shouldn't have dosed him with.  Cuz I shouldn't have had whatever problem created this Ich in the first place.  I think it was too high of a temp over 2-3 days, followed shortly by our power being out for 15 hours.  Followed by another power outage within a week.  So now I have a plan to deal with too high a temp, and a power back-up.  You told me time and again that Lucky and Count (the basslet) were goners.  You're right.  They'll die.  Someday.  I won't like it.  But I know how to keep their stress levels low.  What I suck at is keeping my stress level low.

I'm sure it sounds silly to you that I would ask for opinions.  But I'm new.  That's how I learn.  I dipped my seahorse.  Pretty much not gonna do that again until someone shows me how that's supposed to work.

Hmmm,

I'm going to let Jim's post stay, although I do see it as quite the personal attack.  Here is why I'm leaving it. 
Sorry Jim, but I think it makes YOU look bad.  I mean after reading your posts on this subject, I'm not sure I would take your advise.  Your approach of catch the fish, take him out, treat him heavily, do this multiple times... may work when you have little tanks with few fish.  However, for our suped (if that is a word) up tanks the best way to treat a fish may be to leave him in the tank and rely on low stress natural settings to work out.

I know I have had ich many times.  Even several times in the past year.  My best success is just doing nothing and letting my beautiful tank take care of itself.

I do see your reasoning, so regardless of how people want to do things, we should offer advice, and then let them do what they want.  You don't see me yelling at Renee for taking the fish out of the tank (which is what I advised against).

Adam

JimL wrote: Adam...     We need more real men like you.

I agree, thanks.

Adam

(by the way, you may have 25 years experience, but I don't think you are gaining credibility with many people here.  Example- Bob Goemans probably has 40 years experience, but no one believes him, and Mark has only 10 years experience and lots of followers)

PC Pondbuilder, that's an interesting article.  Great info - thanks!

Adam, thanks for leaving the posts.

Jim, I wasn't aware that I had insulted you.  The only thing I can remember saying a few times is that I'm not comfortable with freshwater dips. 

I don't think freshwater dips all that bad.  I agreed earlier in this topic that they often help.  I like them when I catch fish, am importing, or exporting, or getting it from one system to another.  But once the fish is in my tank... it doesn't come out.  I'd rather lose the fish, then stress the rest of the inhabitants catching it.

Now I may not have been there, and Renee may have said some really stupid things to insult you.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that she did. But, she didn't say them here on this forum.  You can talk to Renee and tell her all you want how she doesn't seem to listen "to those who have been there before". But don't do it on my site.  Maybe she is listening to those who have been there before, just not you in particular.  Hey she didn't listen to me either.

Also, I will stand up and defend for anyone who has the word "Presidency" below their name when being personally attacked by someone with the word "Guest" below theirs.  My presidency means everything to me, and they know it.

Adam

JimL wrote: Adam          As for your insults to me. You better tone it down a little. And... I mean it.

I believe that you are taking this too far. From an outside standpoint, I don't think that anything Adam has done has discredited you. You are doing just fine with that yourself.

This forum's purpose is to provide a varied opinion on different aspects of the hobby. There is more than one way to treat ich. And there is more than one opinion on how to do that. I like and appreciate the fact that you helped Renee out! And I think it is great that you have posted your thoughts and ideas on how to help her combat this infestation. Just don't get upset when everyone doesnt take your advice.

Bob Goemans probably has 40 years experience, but no one believes him

 I thought I was the only one who felt that way .

Renee, how much garlic are you feeding?  It's no secret that I'm very sceptical of the medicinal properties of garlic.  Perhaps you might cut back a bit on the amount???  But I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about treating fish disease...

Suzy wrote: Did you hear who is going to be the guest speaker? Thanks again, Adam!!!

You're welcome.  I wish everyone else would let us know what they are passionate about. 

Adam

Just my opinion - But I thought the purpose of this club was to help each other out?  However, that doesn't mean  that we have to do everything that everybody says.  I would hope that we can all realize this and not take offense just because somebody tries something different or not at all.

I've said it before and I'll say it again(probably again too,), but I've heard a million different ways to do the same thing with this hobby and I'm sure that about half of them would work!  I've learned a ton from this forum and members of it, but that surely doesn't mean that I always do everything that I'm advised or given opinion on.

Jim - I hope you don't shy away from helping out in the future!!!

I completely agree with Mark.  That was my advice to Renee over the phone and in PMs recently. 

Just what I was thinking.

Adam

rfoote wrote: Jim - I hope you don't shy away from helping out in the future!!!

I'll disagree here. Some people, no matter the knowledge that they may posess and they good that they can do to fellow hobbiests by sharing this knowledge feel the need to be complete and total  about it. Especially if someone disagrees or does not follow their suggestions to the letter. To me, these types of people do more detriment to the hobby and are best left off of the message board. Many members of Reef Central are a perfect example of this.

JimL wrote:   I must come across as a very stupid person.

The one thing I agree on

JimL wrote: As for your insults to me. You better tone it down a little. And... I mean it.

You've managed to insult two friends of mine and this entire club. You have also managed to do something that most people try to avoid and that is to turn this friendly forum in to a Jerry Springer show. You have also prompted me to react in a way that I advocate against HIGHLY. Well done you  . If you want to threaten my friends, I have a suggestion for you. Don't hide behind your keyboard and be a  man. I'll be there. Better yet, take your 20 years of experience, get on your high horse and ride the  off!

To the remaining board members, I apologize for allowing myself to be reduced to expressing my hostility by one so ignorant. If anyone wants this deleted or edited, just PM me.

Hey Jim,

Susy used to have an eel just like the one in your Avatar.  Check out this thread http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1906 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1906

Renee, I hope your tank is doing better.  I just wanted to post my experience with ich so you may have some hope. 

After my 150 Gallon tank had been set up for about 5 months, I put my favorite reef fish in.  A Powder Blue Tang.  About 2 months after introducing him the tank  had a terrible outbreak of Ich.  Maybe not as bad as yours, but enough to be devestating to me.  I was unable to catch any of the fish to do a freshwater dip or a hospital tank so I started by adding Neon Gobies.  This was all I could afford.  (Upon using my 20/20 hindsite I realized that had I put the money spent on 3 Neon Gobies into one cleaner shrimp I might have had better luck.)  Anyway, they all contracted the Ich themselves and died within a week. (They were not all added at once, but rather one at a time when the one before was lost to Ich.)  These fish all did their job and cleaned up the other fish, especially the Powder Blue Tang, but that only lasted until a new batch of cysts attached.

I tried several products to cure it and after several treatments found that my skimmer was skimming it off almost as fast as it was added to the tank.  After I turned the skimmer off I believe the medication started working a little.  After 3 weeks of fighting I finally decided it was hopeless and resigned to letting the Ich do it's work and hoping that my fish survived it ravages.  Another 2-3 weeks and the death of my prized Powder Blue Tang brought the end of the plague and my tank has been happy and healthy for the last 6 months.

I guess the moral of this story is...maybe Mark and Adam are right.  Quit messing with it, resign yourself to some fish loss and do what you can to keep your tank and water healthy.  Your healthiest fish will eventually fight it off and those not so healthy...well you know. 

Chin up.  Eventually this to shall pass.

Just a question since we are on the topic of Ich. 

I had a couple of fish in my tank die from ich a few months ago.  I also had a cleaner shrimp die around the same time( obviously not from Ich),  so I have been fish free for about 8 weeks.  I was wondering if I still might have Ich in my tank.  I have been holding out on putting any new fish in at the advice of bob on http://www.wetwebmedia.com - www.wetwebmedia.com .  My corals look great, and I'm ready for fish.  what does the group think??

I had a relatively new tank at the time and hope that the losses of before count as my sacrifice to the reef gods.

Suzy wrote:  Not as cute as the sexy guy who lives in my house, though.

But then again, who can compare with Sexy Rob?  And didn't you say before that mister Perry was the cutest? 
And for Carl.  We aren't "pimping" you (Carl's words not mine).  But you have to realize something.  As president, it is my responsibility to ensure the financial success of this club.  Last year's WMAS Calendar and Date Auction were our two biggest money makers.....  so I'm just thiking of what's best for the club.

Adam

acerob,

I say yes, there is Ich in there.  But so what, that isn't the concern.  How is your tank doing?  That is the question (although lost in the shuffle of all the recent posts).

Adam

Jim may be right.  None of us know.  However, we should also mention that there are lots of other diseases in our tanks as well.  So if the crypto is gone, great!  But that still doesn't address the real concern of what condition your tank is in.

Adam

Acerob as a fellow newb I think the only way your gonna find out is if you add a fish stick some cheaps in there you can have my damsel if you want him.  Stick a cleaner in there too.

Renee How is your tank doing?  One more ? if you husband is on TDY USAF how does your tank handle PCS's?  I'm going active duty army in about two years and was wondering if a reef would survive.  PCS is a permanent change in station for all the civilians out there.

Cadet Jaren Glover

Jaren, It will completely depend on how you do the move and which move you are talking about. If you are PCS'ing OCONUS, I would sell the tank. If the Army is PCS'ing you CONUS I would bring your tank with you. Military contracted movers aren't known for their good handling practices, plus you won't see your tank for awhile. What I would really suggest is having someone else locally to you care for the tank for awhile til you get settled. Then, you can move the tank.

If you get moved around like I did, just put the aquarium scenes from finding Nemo on a video loop. Good luck!