Utah rock?
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Specialized Discussion
Forum Name: Equipment
Forum Description: This is the place to ask question about reef equipment.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12030
Printed Date: December 10 2025 at 9:07am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Utah rock?
Posted By: dadofrad
Subject: Utah rock?
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 7:05am
| I was at a LFS store last night shooting the breeze, and a person there told me that the Utah rock will not develop the anarobic zone like purchased live rock has. Has anyone broke an established piece open to see if after a given length of time the Utah rock has established the black center that he was talking about? |
Replies:
Posted By: amorgenegg
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 7:42am
|
I have not used Utah rock, or checked to see if it will develop the
anaerobic bacteria, but I imagine over time it will just like deep
sandbeds seem to. I am interested though in a definite answer
also.
------------- Andrew Morgenegg |
Posted By: Jared Wood
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 10:18am
|
Not all live rock supports anarobic zones.
Has anyone cracked open oceanic live rock to see if there is a black center? I would think that only a few of my largest peices of kaelini rock are capable of it, and I'm not about to crack on of them open.
I have lots of tongan branch rock, and I am sure that none if it supports anarobic zones. ------------- In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth ... then He let it cycle. Have you read my http://www.jaredwood.com/observations.htm#dinosaur" rel="nofollow - dinosaur theory yet? |
Posted By: unixnum1
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 11:36am
|
How long do you think it would take to develop a "zone"? I would think that as long as the rock had sufficient micro holes in it, it would be able to develop a zone. ------------- 220G with 30G sump, SPS/LPS. RoboTank Controller. ===================================== why am I always the stem? 
|
Posted By: Kevin F
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 4:22pm
|
I have no personal experience with Utah rock. I am assuming because of
the name that it is some type of rock that is mined in Utaha nd is
being used for decorative rock in the home aquarium. If such is the case my primary concern with using such a rock would be the leacing of heavy metals, such as copper into the marine system. Many of the rocks that are mined containmetals that will leach metals over a given time and continually to slowly relesae them until the levels become toxic and your tank crashes. As far as the bacteria growth, I believe it is next to impossible for deadrock to develop anerobic regions if placed in a marine tank in a conventional use. There was an experiment that took place using a piece of traditional liverock,a piece of dead rock, and a piece of rock that came to the wholesalers with a coral attached to it. All of the rocks were housed in the same aquarium for three years. The system had no mechanical filtration but was run off of a refugium filter. The rocks were removed from the tanks, broken up and examined. They found that the dead rock had developed no anerobic regions. They found that the traditional live rock had little anerobic regions and believed this was caused by several clogged pathways were previous bacteria had died, assumed to have happended during shipping. The liverock that came with a piece of coral was filled with anerobic regions. The rock was never removed from the water for an extended period the bacteria was able to survive. A believe some of the other problems that are associated is that the aerobic bacteria multiplies very quickly covering the surface of the rocks, where the anerobic bacteria is slow growing and is lieft no pint of entry. There has to be a source in the system to seed the dead rock. If the surface of the lr containing the anerobes is blocked by the aerobes then there is no chance that the anerobic bacteria will be able to enter the rock. I am currently experimenting with several pieces of deadrock, burying them in a DSB to see if they are removed from an aerobic area and placed in an area with less oxygen where anerobic bacteria thrives, if the rock will be able to be colonized by the anerobic bacteria. I'm 5 months away from my first trial. I'll let you know. ------------- The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. Albert Einstein |
Posted By: ssilcox
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 4:45pm
|
My question is -
Even if I have all live rock (which I do - havent ever ran Utah rock... not that there is anything wrong with that
 ) what percentage of your anaerobic zones are really within your live rock anyway? I would guess there would be a higher percentage of anaerobic zones within your sandbed rather than your live rock.My theory is, if you want to run Utah rock, just run a deep sand bed.
|
Posted By: sshm
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 4:50pm
|
How many times was the experiment repeated and what were the error margins and measures? ------------- http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1157896 - Difficult and special care reef inhabitants |
Posted By: Kevin F
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 5:37pm
|
the experiment was only done once. It doesn't really qualify which is why he never attempted to publish the results. I do agree much or your anerobic bacteria will come from a DSB if you use one. In my system I do not have a DSb but do use several coral rocks, as well as a homemade nitrate filter. ------------- The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. Albert Einstein |
Posted By: sshm
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 5:44pm
|
Then I dont really see what is achieved by putting up that information here either? Not knocking on you or anything, but someone might take an isolated finding for a fact of life and perpetuate it.
Growth rates etc are hard to measure and control, unless the environment is controlled by selectively releasing spores of different aerobic and anaerobic bacteria into a sterile system and then measuring their colonization rate and extent. Otherwise, such isolated findings have no meaning. ------------- http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1157896 - Difficult and special care reef inhabitants |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 6:31pm
|
I find it hard to believe that the aerobic bacterial growth in the aerobic zones would block entry of anaerobic bacteria. I'd guess it would be next to impossible to prevent bacterial growth in the anaerobic zones. But im just speculating :p
------------- 
|
Posted By: bbeck4x4
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 9:25pm
|
I have been told all of these stories by the persons trying to sell me the "live" rock, I have mixed rock in my tank, and the utah rocks have had the fastest coraline growth of any(they were white after spraying though), I have had a large Utah rock in my tank oh, near 6 months now, it is now totaly covered in purple coraline alge. I did my homework and used both, BTW, the Utah rock is not mined, same with the sand, it is found on the ground right were it was formed, is it millions/thousands of years ago? This area(greater wasatch front) was once under a ocean also. Brian ------------- Family Portraits /Google trusted Photographer for Google Maps for Businesses |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 11:19pm
|
I completly disagree with the direction everyone is going here. First, It is not anaerobic zones that you need or even desire. You want anoxic zones or low in oxygen levels as opposed to anaerobic being depleted of o2. Second, of course the Utah rock will create anoxic regions were water is not circulated within the rock as rapidly it will become anoxic. Third, I dont believe breaking open a rock to see rotten areas inside that are anaerobic is very scientific and will not disclose any useful information in itself. The easiest way for me to make it clear that these rocks function and why it is way simpler than you may think is to describe quickly a de-nitrification coil to you.
Taking a roll of say 200' of airlline tubing and siphoning your aquarium water through it at the rate of say a drip or two per second makes a de-nitrifying coil. As the water travels through the coil The o2 in the water gets depleted. At some point in the coil the H2O becomes anoxic and the bacteria that thrive in those conditions become prominant. The correct length of hose along with the proper flow rates will result in lower nitrate levels at the exit of the coil. It really is that simple and yes we can use less of the rocks taken from the ocean and still have healthy beautiful aquariums. The reason for seeding your tank with real live rock is not de-nitrification for the most part although it can accelerate the process. It is for micro fauna etc. Therefore good live rock would be very fresh and unwashed and not cured but treated as a live animal since that is one reason we obtain it. (Although I do hate being stung by some unknown little bugger crawling around in my rocks
 )------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 12:48am
Of course y'all would expect me to put in my 2 cents on this one.
First thing to realize is that no LFS worker or owner that I know of has ever tried using LBTR (Lake Bonneville Tufa Rock). Why would they want to encourage something that in the short run seems to take money from their pockets by reducing the need for wild collected LR.
Second, "low" or "no" oxygen zones exist in all the materials we use in our tanks, even within particles of sand. It's ludicrous to assume that because the center of a piece of LR does not show black areas that it harbors no denitrifying bacteria. Black color cannot be the sole identifying mark of these zones.
Third, I believe it has been found that the species of bacteria called Nitrobacter which we cultivate in our marine aquariums, can change its source of Oxygen for respiration. In effect, when the environment is lacking or absent of O2, it can swap from using free O2 to using O2 that is bound with Nitrogen (NO2, NO3).
Fourth, Yes, I have cracked open some LBTR and found the same dark appearance inside as when cracking open LR collected from the ocean. I have also tried unsuccessfully to crack open some particularly dense pieces of LBTR. I would assume that all we would find in the center of those rocks is just more hard rock. Thank goodness the surfaces of those rocks had interesting shapes and holes and had Coralline Algae growing on them, or I would have tossed them out long ago. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
|
dadofrad wrote:Posted By: sshm
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 1:10am
|
Good Greef, not to nitpick but just wanted to point out to some terminology:
Anaerobic literally means devoid of air and is used to describe activity (living or otherwise) or organisms in such a conditions (anaerobic glycolysis, anaerobic bacteria, anaerobic exercise etc) Anoxia means devoid of oxygen which is a special case of Hypoxia which refers to a state of depleted oxygen. Several anaerobic bacteria are able to survive in various levels of hypoxia, anoxia included. I agree that hypoxia is enough for some denitrifying bacteria to do their job (using more abundant nitrates/nitrites for oxidation ) ------------- http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1157896 - Difficult and special care reef inhabitants |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 8:00am
|
If someone opens an electronics box expecting to find food, then nature must take its course. Stop putting "do not eat" labels on dessicators.
LMAO  -------------
|
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 8:43am
|
We DO want anaerobic areas in our rocks, not anoxic. Good Greef has those two terms reversed.
I also agree with Mark. Utah Rock, Live Rock, Legos, Marble Works, Filter Pads, they all work. Each of them will harbor bacteria for nitrification and to a lesser degree denitrification.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 8:53am
|
So my underwater lego base helps my tank fight off evil in more ways than one? -------------
|
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 8:57am
|
Yep, I've seen a few tanks with legos.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: sshm
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 9:45am
GEEEEEEEEKFIIIIIIIGHTTTTTT!!!!!! Anaerobic literally means devoid of air and is used to describe activity (living or otherwise) or organisms in such a conditions (anaerobic glycolysis, anaerobic bacteria, anaerobic exercise etc) Anoxia means devoid of oxygen which is a special case of Hypoxia which refers to a state of depleted oxygen. Several anaerobic bacteria are able to survive in various levels of hypoxia, anoxia included. I agree that hypoxia is enough for some denitrifying bacteria to do their job (using more abundant nitrates/nitrites for oxidation). Not all denitrifying bacteria die in the presence of oxygen, some can switch their metabolic process depending on whether there is oxygen or less of it, but most denitrifying bacteria require anaerobic(anoxic) conditions. ------------- http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1157896 - Difficult and special care reef inhabitants |
Posted By: Kevin F
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 11:16am
  Are you joking? Either way that is freakin cool. If your really using lego's to decorate your tank I'd love to see. There are so many possibilities, you could hang starships from the canopy's.  ------------- The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. Albert Einstein |
Posted By: Jared Wood
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 11:50am
The wire-ties in my tank grow coraline faster than anything else. ------------- In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth ... then He let it cycle. Have you read my http://www.jaredwood.com/observations.htm#dinosaur" rel="nofollow - dinosaur theory yet? |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 2:47pm
|
I'm not a student of science or anything just a big reader and like all of you doing my best and sharing, so no geek fights. I read in Anthony Calfos book on page 93 this: regarding live sand
The movement of water also transports waste products and nutrients for the benefit of bacteria and other microorganisms colonizing the sand. It is also intended to supply just enough oxygen to allow the lower region to become anoxic (oxygen poor) without becoming anaerobic (all heck breaking loose in a closed system!). Anaerobic conditions are a concern in deep substrates that are mismanaged. There is the possibility of an oxygen debt that could kill many animals in an inclosed system.
I have no intention of writing the whole chapter and feel that that is still within context. This is similar to information within some of my other reef keeping texts. Also as a professional Arborist when a customer asks why there tree has so many surface roots some of the times my answer is that the soil is possibly to anaerobic. A trees roots need oxygen and if there is not enough present in the lower horizons of soil then it must grow shallower roots. Of course this is only one of the reasons that may happen, my point being that my my texts concerning Dendrology also refer to anaerobic as o2 depleted. Again, I am not a Scientist I only read there findings and try my best to understand them and how they affect my personal endeavors. I am in no position to argue with them or any of you I am here only to share of course. Although, I am a confident person and I appreciate any nit pickin that helps us all understand better. Regardless of terminology, I sure hope that we agree on the concepts here and how they may affect our aquariums.
Corraline algae does grow faster on plastics, does it not. ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 2:59pm
|
I admit to getting confused with all these terms, I can't seem to keep them straight. But I didn't think there was any real difference between anoxic and anaerobic. Both meaning no oxygen. I thought a low oxygen environment is said to be hypoxic.
But regardless of terminology, you need low oxygen levels for denitrifers to work (NO3 --> N2) but if the O2 levels get too low you get sulfur reducing bacteria that convert (SO4 --> H2S). SO4 is a major constituent of seawater so it's very abundant. H2S smells like rotten eggs and is quite toxic. ------------- Jon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing... |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 3:09pm
|
Really that is my point exactly, Only thing is the terms are misused so much as to confuse us. I am going to ask the Wetland biologist I have had on staff in the past What his take is on the terminology. I will probably get more than I ask for and my head will swell to great lengths, but I will try. Also I looked in one book just now that said this:
Anaerobic respiration - metabolism without oxygen - is used as a backup system during times that there is not enough o2 available. The metabolic pathways of anaerobic respiration are entered only to keep cells from dying. Because, without aerobic respiration producing molecules that accept electrons, all respiratory cycles come to a grinding halt.
Theres more but I have to leave right now. embarrasingly enough that comes from the book
BIOLOGY FOR DUMMIES  ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: AnthonyH
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 3:56pm
|
Anaerobic respiration - metabolism without oxygen - is used as a backup system during times that there is not enough o2 available. The metabolic pathways of anaerobic respiration are entered only to keep cells from dying. Because, without aerobic respiration producing molecules that accept electrons, all respiratory cycles come to a grinding halt.
The above paragraph describes the situation for a facultative anaerobe like yeast (can use O2 but doesn't have to). An obligate anaerobe can only survive in the absence of O2 like Clostridium botulinum whick causes botulism.
------------- Anthony 55 gallon reef |
Posted By: chrisslc
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 5:01pm
|
ah, botox in the DSB, that would explain the frozen expression on my Gramerrus's faces. ------------- Murray, Utah just north of the park. "It's all the same to the clam" -Shel Silverstein |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 7:34pm
|
OK..I'm with Mark's post. I am a firm believer in Utah Rock. If it's for free it's for me. Anyway>>> my tanks are 90% born and raised Utah rock seeded with store bought for the diversity it brings with it. If you looked at my tanks your looking at $4.50 per pound, no it's not Tonga or exotic by nature. As far as the anerobics,denitrifers, etc..etc. Does it matter if your tank and all of it's diversity thrives with no filtration besides your (deep oolitic sand beds)<<Utah"s best and home grown millions of years old rock works well for your filtration. It also depends where you collect from? I have seen store bought rock that I would think it would cost less than my collected Utah Rock. Asthetics vs. anerobic> it depends where you collected and what was the quality. When I first collected Utah rock I found many different types...some contained what I call conglomerate sediments. The rock we found that is in most tanks today is very pourus, let's say you can shoot water thru it. In my eyes better than some of the heavy not so pourus exotic live rock. To date no heavy metals have been found or has leeched in to our systems. Mark, have you had a crash or has anyone not asked for Utah rock lately? Ok lets get down to the benefits of oolitic sand beds>>anyone? ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 7:57pm
|
Okay I spoke with Calfo tonight. He is a little unsure on the terminology. I think in most cases like this he would have probably called me for terminology help. I think this paragraph is generally accepted as the definition of these layers.
This division of the water in an aquarium into two discrete bodies of water, the water mass above the sediments and the water mass in the sediments is very important for the functionality of the sand beds and aquaria. In the presence of bacteria, it results in the formation of relatively discrete layers in the sediments based on the diffusion of gases through the sediment water mass. These layers are generally characterized by the concentration of oxygen in the water, and they are classified as aerobic, anaerobic, and anoxic. Aerobic layers have oxygen concentrations near or at the level found in the free flowing water above the sediments. Anaerobic layers have some oxygen present, but the concentration is reduced from that found in the overlying waters. Anoxic layers have no free dissolved oxygen, and may be also referred to as reducing, as opposed to oxidizing, layers.
It can be found (of all places) in a deep sand bed article by Shimek found here http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: AnthonyH
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 10:00pm
|
I can definitely work with those definitions for the aquarium terminology. Literally anaerobic and anoxic should be synonyms. Hypoxic would be a better literal term for what has been described as anaerobic. Anoxic=without oxygen
Anaerobic=without air
Hypoxic=reduced oxygen ------------- Anthony 55 gallon reef |
Posted By: sshm
Date Posted: May 03 2006 at 10:15pm
|
Exactly!! ------------- http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1157896 - Difficult and special care reef inhabitants |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:08am
|
I think everyone actively pursueing this sort of knowledge should study this book:
CAPTIVE SEAWATER FISHES
Science and Technology
by Stephen Spotte
If we were all reading this book we truly would have something to discuss. This is all really quite complicated and well just read my little quote thing. The point is that under the right conditions Utah rock works, o2 levels while being one of the single most important factors certainly is not the only factor and is very subjective at that. There are certainly many ways to skin this cat (called de-nitrification). ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:48am
Hypoxia may refer to:
anoxic
Adjectiveanaerobic
Anoxic = low o2 anaerobic = no o2
hypoxic = certain death? or ("all heck breaking loose in a closed system!") ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: AnthonyH
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 10:18am
|
I agree there may be terms that have been agreed upon by convention to mean certain things. Like Hypoxia may mean lack of oxygan in tissues according to the medical community.
Literally an a- or an- in front of a word means not or without, hypo means less than normal, hyper means more that normal. Therefore I believe it still holds true that
Anoxic=without oxygen
Anaerobic=without air
Hypoxic=reduced oxygen ------------- Anthony 55 gallon reef |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 10:34am
|
AnthonyH-
I agree with all those terms.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 11:26am
|
hmm.... ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 11:34am
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_depletion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_depletion ------------- Jon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing... |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 11:58am
|
I didnt have a problem with any of this until I read Anthony Calfo's book(no dis-respect). I personally have always explained to people that in order to facilitate the nitrification process they had to have an aerobic condition. Then in order to facilitate de-nitrification you would encourage an anaerobic condition to be present. That is my story and for now I am stickin with it. Everything else is more complicated than necessary for the average aquarist. It comes down to a combination of a lot of highly proportional factors each one creating a compromise between various strains of bacterium and there production capabilities. I was hoping to strengthin everyones understanding of the process (including my own) by allowing some more terminology into my equation. At this point though it is all much too subjective for me. I am glad we all agree on the concepts here and are only striving to bring a standard to our terminology and I think that is a worthy endeavor at this point for the sake of healthy communications. I can agree that:
QWERTY = no oxygen
Big air = lots of oxygen
I can hardly breathe = low oxygen
or for now what ANTHONY H said  ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: Good Greef
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 2:22pm
|
BTW is Anthony then saying that he was incorrect in his book or what? What you say that was discussed with him and what is written on page 93 are inconsistent. I think I will attemt to contact him about this also. ------------- Please, be kind and gentle for most of what we know is commonplace,subjective,and misunderstood. learn in peace. |
Posted By: Jared Wood
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 6:05pm
The strict definition of a word may be different than the conventional usage of it.
What a word or the pieces of a word mean inherintly, may be different then what people in general believe that it means. And that's ok.
AnthonyH was giving the definitions of the words not the usage of them. ------------- In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth ... then He let it cycle. Have you read my http://www.jaredwood.com/observations.htm#dinosaur" rel="nofollow - dinosaur theory yet? |
Posted By: dadofrad
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 11:04pm
|
I appreciate all the input. |
I was just expecting a yes or no answer and I got that plus a whole lot more!Posted By: TheBart
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:51pm
|
I'm just getting around to reading this line--- And I have a question: What, exactly, is Utah rock? Hints exist in this thread, but what, where and when would I look for some? When I get this tank back up, I will need something inexpensive to go with the required live rock to bring the total quantity up. Tnx all---- |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 12:04am
|
Read this: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
It should get you started. Then call and come visit me to see it in action. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|