WMAS Discussion Forum : Tap water reef tank

Tap water reef tank : I skimmed so much I missed the...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:48:54 +0000

Author: Jake Pehrson
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 10:48am

I skimmed so much I missed the entire lighting discussion.

VHOs used to be my bulb of choice. I now use T5s and halides (sometimes together and othertimes not). VHOs were awesome 10 years ago. They still work well and if you have VHOs you don't need to switch to T5s, but for a new setup I see no reason to use VHOs.

I agree with Ryan about the internal vs external reflector. External reflectors are much better. The reason why internal reflectors were great for VHOs is that they didn't take up a lot of room. A good external reflector for a VHO took up way too much room. T5s are a different story.

Tap water reef tank : Let me start out by saying I only...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:39:53 +0000

Author: Jake Pehrson
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 10:39am

Let me start out by saying I only skimmed the above posts.

I have run tanks on RO water and tap water. It is very possible to run a tank successfully on tap water although I think running them on RO is a much better option. Tap water is a gamble. You cannot control what is coming into your tank (oh, and I agree with Mark. Adding Kalk to your tap water is a great idea and cheap). My tanks have always done better with RO water. I have less algae growth and less problems. Consider how cheap it is to get an RO unit and how cheap kalkwasser can be compared to the money some of us spending buying corals and fish.

Tap water reef tank : Mark Peterson wrote: CapnMorgan...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:02:02 +0000

Author: Ryan Thompson
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 10:02am

Mark Peterson wrote:

CapnMorgan wrote:

A 95 watt UVL Aquasun T12 VHO measures at 345 PAR where an ATI 54 watt Aquablue measures at 336 PAR (measurements by Grim reefer). But on the space issue I guess the T12's do take up less room if you're not going to run reflectors.

Why is the comparison of PAR between an Aquasun VHO and an Aquablue T5? Those are different spectrums, are they not?Also, isn't it true that PAR meters look for light that benefits terrestrial plants? Unless I'm mistaken, PAR meters do not read much of the 400+ nm, the light that coral need the most. This tells me that we should not base these decisions solely on PAR.And my last question/comment is regarding reflectors and efficiency. The VHO tube most used today has an internal reflector which has been found to be very efficient. Contrary to a comment made above, all coral do great with VHO lighting.This hobby is made up of individuals as different as their lighting preferences.

Mark you are right in a couple points but let me shed some light (pun intended)

PAR sensors commonly over read red spectrum and under read blues. Like you mentioned. However PAR meters don't care where the light comes from or what that light was made for. It simply reads how much light is actually hitting the sensor.

I have no doubts that VHO can keep coral but the OP insisted that T5's can't put out more PAR than a VHO. That isn't the case.

Internal reflectors are decent at best. To say they are very efficient is misleading. If an internal reflector is very efficient then what is a good external reflector? Super-duper fantabulous efficient?

PAR readings between an internally reflected T5 bulb and an externally reflected bulb are a joke. The internally reflected bulb can't punch through more than 12" of water. I wish I had the numbers that Grim came up with but that would me hours to dig up.

An externally reflected T5 bulb is more efficient and puts out better numbers than a T12 VHO. Not to mention better bulb choices and much less money. Last time I checked T12's were like $35 a bulb and they only last 6 months.

I will take T5 long before T12.

Tap water reef tank : CapnMorgan wrote:A 95 watt...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:46:30 +0000

Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 9:46am

Why is the comparison of PAR between an Aquasun VHO and an Aquablue T5? Those are different spectrums, are they not?

Also, isn't it true that PAR meters look for light that benefits terrestrial plants? Unless I'm mistaken, PAR meters do not read much of the 400+ nm, the light that coral need the most. This tells me that we should not base these decisions solely on PAR.

And my last question/comment is regarding reflectors and efficiency. The VHO tube most used today has an internal reflector which has been found to be very efficient. Contrary to a comment made above, all coral do great with VHO lighting.

This hobby is made up of individuals as different as their lighting preferences.

Tap water reef tank : SumpCrab wrote:I would love...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:49:17 +0000

Author: Ryan Thompson
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 8:49am

SumpCrab wrote:

I would love to believe that (because my damn VHOs stick out an inch from the side of my tank) but I just dont. After reading posts about how T5 users switched back to VHO actinics I can only assume its because the VHOs put out more light. I am not saying that T5s are not more efficient in terms of par/watts but when you consider par/space I would be willing to wager that a 95w VHO bulb beats a 54w T5 hands down. Its the size of the reflectors that really turned me off -- at 2.75" I could be running a t12 at 2". As an aside, I could not find one post where someone actually did a comparison with a par meter. Please point me to one if you can.

I will try to find my link later if I can. Grim reefer over on reef central has done a comparison between t5 and vho.

T5s kill vho in light output. It is not even close in terms of PAR. Now with a 250w halide you don't necessarily need the PAR. Vho actinics put out almost zero usable light. All they do is make the corals fluoresce.

I don't know why you would put a 48" bulb over a 36" tank however.

The best reflectors on the market are only 2" wide so they take up the same space as the vho.

I'm sure you will love the vho and halide combo but some research would show that vhos really don't put out that much light compared to a good t5 setup. Actinics are not meant to put out PAR, the blue t5 bulbs are the highest PAR t5 bulbs you can get. I am running 4 t5s over my 40 gallon breeder and keep anything I want. My ati sunpower is producing the same if not more PAR than a 250w halide at almost 1/3 the electricity and no heat into the tank.

Tap water reef tank : SumpCrab wrote: There will...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:13:21 +0000

Author: Jeffs_little_ocean
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 8:13am

SumpCrab wrote:

There will also be a 30g long for a QT tank (I decided I am never dealing with ICH again, ever!)

NO skimmer

NO RO unit

NO mech filtration

IMO Macro algea, PAR and patience is all that is (really) needed for a great reef tank. I will probably run some carbon here and there

cheers,

SumpCrab

Well like I said in my other post, you seem to have studied up on how RO units are a waste of time and money. Now youve studied up on how t12s are a better bulb choice than t5s. Nice Okay, its the weekend, time to set up that great tapwater, skimmer-less, mech filtration-less, High PAR driven reeftank. Good luck with the set-up. Be sure to post pics in the tank build section. Im sure there are many of us who have (aparently) spent way too much money on worthless RO units, skimmers, and T5 set-ups who will be watching to see how things turn out....

Edited by Jeffs_little_ocean - November 03 2010 at 8:41am

Tap water reef tank : If you're going to run more...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:49:30 +0000

Author: CapnMorgan
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 1:49am

If you're going to run more than 1 bulb T5's are definitely your choice. T5's put out much more light, due to a higher lumens per watt than T12 VHO. A typical 54 watt T5 bulb produces around 92.6 lumens per watt. A typical 95 watt T12 VHO puts out 67.8 lumens per watt. A 95 watt UVL Aquasun T12 VHO measures at 345 PAR where an ATI 54 watt Aquablue measures at 336 PAR (measurements by Grim reefer). But on the space issue I guess the T12's do take up less room if you're not going to run reflectors.

Tap water reef tank : I would love to believe that (because...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:59:55 +0000

Author: SumpCrab
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 12:59am

I would love to believe that (because my damn VHOs stick out an inch from the side of my tank) but I just dont. After reading posts about how T5 users switched back to VHO actinics I can only assume its because the VHOs put out more light. I am not saying that T5s are not more efficient in terms of par/watts but when you consider par/space I would be willing to wager that a 95w VHO bulb beats a 54w T5 hands down. Its the size of the reflectors that really turned me off -- at 2.75" I could be running a t12 at 2". As an aside, I could not find one post where someone actually did a comparison with a par meter. Please point me to one if you can.

Tap water reef tank : SumpCrab wrote: ( I...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:35:22 +0000

Author: CapnMorgan
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 12:35am

SumpCrab wrote:

( I decided on VHO over T5's due to the fact that you can actually fit more PAR into the same space as T5's when you factor in the size of the T5 reflectors... what a joke. There is no way 4 T5s (of the same type) will be giving me more par then these VHOs)

Not to be negative at all, because I firmly believe in doing things how they work best for the individual. But I'm sure any PAR meter and decent set of T5's would prove you wrong there.

Tap water reef tank : Well I am glad to see this thread...

Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:31:21 +0000

Author: SumpCrab
Subject: 44318
Posted: November 03 2010 at 12:31am

Well I am glad to see this thread has caught the attention of all the prominent reefers here. I have been busy with my build and am now in the final stages of plumbing and electrical work. Hopefully the "go wet date" will be sometime this weekend. Here is what the system will consist of, I'll try to get some pics up later.

40g breeder w/ 30 gallon custom acrylic sump (more of a mangrove macro algea "swamp" with frags of course

lighting for the 40 is 4x95 watt VHOS (2x actinic, 1x 454 and 1x 75.25) + 1 250W XM 10K

Lighting for the mangrove swamp is 1 250W XM halide

50lbs tokota dead rock

50lbs dead BRS rock tonga branch mostly