well its not for the reasons you guys think...

saturday night i was out late with my friends so i had my dad unplug my lights and feed my tank, in doing so he accidentally unplugged my heaters.... tank got WAY cold overnight as my window was open and the tank is right next to it...

things lost....

powder brown.. plate coral.... all ricordia in tank.... cup coral... and a few other little things... it was quite a sad sight to see.

the good news though is that my biological filter kicks some MAJOR TRASH!!! with 4 dead corals, a dead LARGE fish and everything i didnt even get a tiny blip on the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate tests... still low as can be... so i went through, changed all media from filters, and now shes flourishing more than ever!!!

as horrible as it is to say this... im kinda glad the powder brown finally died... he has not been able to get over ick but just wouldnt kick the bucket.. he was spreading infection to my other fish a little bit but now two days later there is no infection in any of my fish at all!  too bad i cant afford a quarantine tank right now...

 Sorry to read about that.

In 40 years in the hobby, I have never bothered turning off pumps to feed. If you are worried about it, just feed slower so the fish have a chance to catch the food before it goes "down the drain".

LostCauseZ06 wrote: ...two days later there is no infection in any of my fish at all!  too bad i cant afford a quarantine tank right now...

There is always an Ich parasite living on one or more of the fish, but it just doesn't bloom and cause any harm until conditions become stressful. Best thing is to seriously look at your tank and see how it's biological ecosystem can be improved. Outside mechanical filters are less important than the living growing biological activity inside the tank and sump/refugium.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm doubting the unplugged heater caused the damage.

Adam

Adam, I'm glad you said it Brother.

Lost, something to realize is that the bio system in our tanks is pretty quick to react. Much quicker than you or I. You can have an Am spike happen so quick that you would never know it except for the floaters. But then the bio system kicks in and naturally tries to re-establish balance and you're left thinking, "well my water params are fine... I don't know what happened." Just something to consider.

What did your tank temp go down to? Because it would actually take a long time in a really cold room to do that much damage IMO.

if you guys dont believe me go ask ryan or kyle at aquatic.. they said there is no way it was my water quality that did it.. especially over night... im guessing the tank got down to easily 60 degrees... window down at night is freezing at my house.. when i woke up at noon it was back up to 74, i had never seen it down past 76 EVER in the past...

the water was perfect.. there was NO problems with the water, or the tank.. ryan and kyle were pretty puzzled as well....

the water was taken from the tank with all the dead stuff in it... not after it had time to really filter alot of it.

BTW mark.. since the crash there is not one spot of ick on any of my fish.. seems like the powder brown was the main stressed out one and kept on stressing cause he was always infected.. he was a breeding ground for ick..

btw i took a look at ryans ricordia that just died beucase his temps got messed up and they looked identical...

you dont lose a perfect condition healthy enormous plate coral overnigth with bad water... no matter how much my setup sucks in your eyes... its just not logical..

my only other idea was that i could have been foul play by somebody that was pissed at me, or someobdy accidentally haveing something on their hands when they messed with my tank while i was gone... but nothing else has died since i have had the heater plugged back in..

Dude, I personally (potentially others but I will not speak for them) are simply trying to share experience and knowledge. Trying to allow you to have the information available to make your own judgement call. No one is "hating" your tank. (watch MTV much?).

Try to relax and understand that just because people say things that you may not want to hear that it is not a personal attack on you. It is an opinion. You OBVIOUSLY have your opinions and have not problem expressing them. Well, you should accept the fact that others will share theirs.

However, you don't need to worry about me sharing mine to your posts anymore. In my opinion, you're too high on your horse to be willing to listen to people trying to help you and therefore a LostCause. Good luck with your perfect, bullet-proof tank.

I don't remember how big you said your tank was, but If I remember right it is 55 gallons or smaller.  I can attest to the fact that a tank sitting in a place in the house that gets cold can lose heat pretty quickly.  I've observed a 4 degree temp swing in my 180 gallon tank in the basement and this during summer months.  In the winter I must have a heater or the tank would easly get as cool as 72 degress and even cooler.  This swing alone could kill some of the more tempermental fish we keep.

I'm sorry to hear about your Powder Brown.  They are very cool fish.  (Almost as cool as Powder Blue's.)  A lot of people have suggested that maybe the water parameters could have had something to do with it's problems and you have contested all along that your parameters are perfect.  I am in no way questioning your water quality or your filtration, but there are many things we don't test and more that we can't test or don't really even understand that could be wrong with the quality, for lack of a better term, of the water.  I don't claim to know what the reason is, but having set up many aquariums, both freshwater and saltwater I can say that I have far fewer problems with disease, sick fish and dying fish after the tank has been set up for a long period of time and become well established.  I've had many fish die in my tanks youth and then found that very few fish die after it has been established a year or so.

If you decide to get another fish that is touchy like the Powder Brown, I would suggest you look carefully at wether or not your tank is large enough for that fish. (Again I don't remember how big your tank is.)  Then wait until your tank has been established for a while.  There is just something about a well established tank that seems to work.  My Powder Blue has thrived in my tank for a year, but it was established 7 years and established at it's current site for 1 year before I aquired him.

Good Luck!  I hope everything that lived through the cold period continues to do well.

wsinbad1 wrote: I don't remember how big you said your tank was, but If I remember right it is 55 gallons or smaller.  I can attest to the fact that a tank sitting in a place in the house that gets cold can lose heat pretty quickly.  I've observed a 4 degree temp swing in my 180 gallon tank in the basement and this during summer months.  In the winter I must have a heater or the tank would easly get as cool as 72 degress and even cooler.  This swing alone could kill some of the more tempermental fish we keep. I'm sorry to hear about your Powder Brown.  They are very cool fish.  (Almost as cool as Powder Blue's.)  A lot of people have suggested that maybe the water parameters could have had something to do with it's problems and you have contested all along that your parameters are perfect.  I am in no way questioning your water quality or your filtration, but there are many things we don't test and more that we can't test or don't really even understand that could be wrong with the quality, for lack of a better term, of the water.  I don't claim to know what the reason is, but having set up many aquariums, both freshwater and saltwater I can say that I have far fewer problems with disease, sick fish and dying fish after the tank has been set up for a long period of time and become well established.  I've had many fish die in my tanks youth and then found that very few fish die after it has been established a year or so. If you decide to get another fish that is touchy like the Powder Brown, I would suggest you look carefully at wether or not your tank is large enough for that fish. (Again I don't remember how big your tank is.)  Then wait until your tank has been established for a while.  There is just something about a well established tank that seems to work.  My Powder Blue has thrived in my tank for a year, but it was established 7 years and established at it's current site for 1 year before I aquired him. Good Luck!  I hope everything that lived through the cold period continues to do well.

WOW i really appreciate you info!! wish everyone was as understanding as you

BTW the tank is a 75, i keep my window open and it get VERY cold in my room.. (the tank gets it all humid and makes my room stink.. lol ) so i jsut keep tons of blankets on my bed at night.. the tank was 3 degrees lower than usual at twelve o clock, it gets warm in my room at around 9... i can only imagine how much colder it got during the night!!!

hrmmm to be perfectly honest i dont know how long the heater was unplugged for  id have to show you how my tank is set up in my room, it is DIRECTLY in front of the window.. breeze comes in and blows directly onto the tank.

the only other thing im kinda not letting in because i know its going to raise some eyebrows... lol is that my calcium is incredibly high... and i mean VERY high... we havent quite narrowed down whats causing it to be so high but its HIGH... ive been told that high calcium will not kill coral though.. so ive been kinda in denial that that could be a problem at all.... not to mention its been high for about a month and the tank has done awesome with no hicupps..

my calcium measured out to be 800

it has been consistently 760-800 for the last month...

the guys that tested my water have said that there is no way that my water is bad... this is coming from ryan and kyle who have been around and tested the water and seen my tank first hand. that is the main reason why i take their advice... they constantly know whats going on in my tank.

i would also like to stress the point that my copperband is still alive... and doing VERY well. he eats nonstop and i actually caught him eating some flake food the other day  no infection and no ick, no stress, just doing really really great.. i would think that it would be the first thing to crap out... other than i would think a fish is more durable to water temps than a coral would be??

FWIW, I have a 300 gallon system in a greenhouse. The water can be at 80 degrees at 8PM and drop all the way down to 70 (the air temperature at night) within 6 hours or so.

LostCauseZ06 wrote: btw i have decided to go with premixxed RO water from now on... hehe

Good idea!  I used to use tap water for my aquariums, then bought a cheap RO unit ($15 used).  When I use tap water instead of RO water for my phytoplankton, it will usually crash within 2 weeks.

Some of the LFS will sell you premixed water, or just RO water if you want.

It is good to hear that everything that is left is doing fine.  Now, what do you want to replace with kind, and what do you want to replace with new stuff?

The only comment I have regarding the loss of your fish is this: "Is it possible that you just had too many fish and the loss of a few left the remaining fish less stressed?"

75 gallons, OK, I can't harrass you too much about too small a tank then.

Everyone is wondering about the turning off the light thing.  Please explain the thought behind this.  I'm guessing you weren't home so you asked you dad to feed, then to turn the lights out which right now is plugged into the outlet without a timer.  If this is the case do like Shane H said and buy a timer or two.  They save a lot of headaches.  This is coming from someone who was too lazy and cheap to buy them for too long himself.  The $10-20 will be a huge favor to both your fish and yourself.

LostCauseZ06, the Ich parasite is really on your fish and in the tank. You cannot see it but it's there. It's always there, but when the time comes that conditions are right, it will bloom again. It always does.

I want you to know that water from a water softener has very little Calcium. That's the main purpose of the water softener, to remove calcium!    ...Still, changing to RO water is a very good move for your tank, IMO.

You initially told us something in one of your very first posts that is still an indication to me that there are things going on with your tank that will result in more trouble down the road.

I want you to believe what I'm writing here. Maybe it will help you understand if I give a little history. I have been around this stuff for 12 years. I helped start the WMAS 11 years ago and then took it upon myself to visit with hobbyists a lot at the same time being very involved in running the club. I wanted to learn all I could from others experiences. I have seen probably almost 500 different reef tanks in Utah and discussed these tanks with their owners.

I have involved myself more intensely in this hobby than most people. I don't know why I'm so intense about it, but I am. I don't know all the answers, and I'm wrong about things a lot of the time, but I'm also right a lot of the time. There are a lot of knowledgable people here. They really want to see you succeed. As hard as it is to believe, that someone you have never met, wants you to succeed, please believe me. It's true.

Please listen to me when I say that a Calcium level of 800 is not good. It is a problem. You cannot see it but it is a problem. Ca needs to be lowered soon. A level that high means that this Ca is in the water but is not being used by the coral, coralline algae, inverts (like hermits and snails) and fish. And it is still rising. Why?

It is wonderful that you are here on the MB sharing the story of your reef tank. We are interested in reading that things are going well, but if you look at it - at your history - most of what we have read is of bad things happening to your tank. It is hard for most of us to see so much death and problems in anyones aquarium.

Please let us help you turn it around. Please be honest about what's going on. Don't hold back any more in telling things like your tank has high Calcium. Ryan and Kyle are very good at what they do. But I wonder if we are not hearing the whole story about what they are recommending, or perhaps there is something else to this puzzle that we have yet to stumble upon. if you are willing to take the chance, let us look into this with you.

First we need to know what the Alkalinity level is in this tank. Can you give us that number?

I'll bet you a donut that you're using Oceanic salt.  That's why your calcium is high.  Either that or you're adding it chemically (i.e. too much B-ionic).

yes i am using oceanic salt  ryan said that MIGHT be the culprit but he doubts it..

the calcium from the softener was just a guess... obviously an incorrect one.

alkalinity was 120 4 days ago, since then i did a 30% water change and have not tested since

i do treat with Bionic solution, i used to buffer calcium and alk, then when my Ca got high i stopped using the Ca buffer and just use the alkalinity. i have not used Ca buffer for easily 4 months.

i know that the 800 Ca level is WAY too high, ive heard that its possibly because i dont have enough coral to use it all??? i have also noticed that i do not get very much coraline growth. it has stayed exactly how it was when i bought all the rock.. i get green algae that looks identical to coraline but it never turns pink/purple.. i get it all over my back and side glass but it stays a light green color. i have noticed lately that there are some new snails growing in my tank. very odd looking ones, there are two that i have seen now so there are probably more.

Ok the lights were turned off after the feeding.. sorry i didnt really phrase it correctly...

i was in salt lake and i remembered i left my tank lights on, i called my dad and asked him to turn them off, when i told him that i also remembverd i had not fed them for the night (i feed twice a day, spirulina and mysis shrimp cubes) so i told him to feed them, wait until they stop eating, and then turn the lights off. the pumps were not turned off at any time. 

mark i really appreciate your help, you have no idea how much i appreciate it, really. just so that you know there are alot of good things going on in my tank as well.. i just usually choose not to post them up because i think it sounds like me bragging. i only post the bad things which is why all my posts seem negative like im having a horrible time and lots of bad luck... honestly my tank hardly requires any maintenence. every day i feed in the morning, go to work, come home and mix some garlic/mysis mix, feed them, scrape glass,  and then add some alkalinity buffer. once a week i add cyclopeze and some zoo food. as well as adding Kents trace minerals once a week.  i will admit that i am constantly in my tank fixing corals that my snails have messed up though. they knock them off all the time and i spend alot of time organizing them.

i replace the media in my filter right about ever 3 months. i will replace 1 fluval media, wait 2-3 days for it to get some good bacteria in it, and then clean out the other fluval and add all new media. my water is honestly CRYSTAL clear. when i had the ick problem i would notice stuff floating around in there and "junk" in the water.. ever since the crash it has been remarkably clear.

media includes: 1 tray of nitrate sponge, 1 tray of activated carbon, and 1 tray of ceramic prefilters. both fluvals are set up the same.

i also have a seaclone 150 skimmer that runs day and night all the time and seems to be working remarkably well (i never knew it would help that much)  i also run a maxijet 1200, and a maxijet 900.

lighting includes 1 VHO actinic, 1 VHO 22k bulb , 2 PC 65 watt actinics, and 2 PC 65 watt 10k bulbs.

fish in the tank are as follows.

1 foxface tang, 1 copperbanded butterfly, 1 blue hippo tang, 1 percula clown, 1 clown goby, 1 orange spotted diamond goby, 1 lawnmower blenny, and 1 cleaner shrimp. then i have about 10 snails and 25 crabs in there. (i really hate snails)

how in the world do i get my calium down??? that is what im really working towards is getting my calcium to safe/normal levels because i would like to get some acros very soon.

how in the world do i get my calium down??? that is what im really working towards is getting my calcium to safe/normal levels because i would like to get some acros very soon.

Switch to Instant Ocean.  If you don't believe me, measure the calcium in a freshly mixed up batch of Oceanic salt.  It will be very high.

Also, imo you're wasting your money by dosing just the alkalinty portion of B-ionic.  If you only have need for alkalinity supplements, then use dry buffer (or baking soda).  Use both portions of the B-ionic together once you get your calcium down. 

jfinch wrote: how in the world do i get my calium down??? that is what im really working towards is getting my calcium to safe/normal levels because i would like to get some acros very soon. Switch to Instant Ocean.  If you don't believe me, measure the calcium in a freshly mixed up batch of Oceanic salt.  It will be very high. Also, imo you're wasting your money by dosing just the alkalinty portion of B-ionic.  If you only have need for alkalinity supplements, then use dry buffer (or baking soda).  Use both portions of the B-ionic together once you get your calcium down.

where do i get instant ocean at??? also the only question i have on that is ryan uses oceanic in all his tanks, and never has way high calcium?? so is that only part of the problem??? i guess its at least a really good starting point. also i noticed that the kent trace elements contains calcium.. like 2,000 MG of it.

You should be able to get Instant Ocean from Aquatic Dreams unless they stopped carrying it.  I got some from them about 4 months ago.  Almost all LFS carry it.

It might also help to see if you can get your hands on some calcifying macro algae.  I can't remember then name right now, but I'm sure someone can help me out with it.  It's the cactus looking one I'm thinking about.

wsinbad1 wrote: You should be able to get Instant Ocean from Aquatic Dreams unless they stopped carrying it.  I got some from them about 4 months ago.  Almost all LFS carry it. It might also help to see if you can get your hands on some calcifying macro algae.  I can't remember then name right now, but I'm sure someone can help me out with it.  It's the cactus looking one I'm thinking about.

does it remove calcium?? and ryan doesnt carry instant ocean, just oceanic, i actually asked him about that the day i got it tested :)

where do i put macro algea???? i dont have room for a sump or a refuge..

BTW my coral includes....

1 pink zoo colony - probly 200 polyps on it

1 bronze/yellow zoo colony - probly 150 polyps

1 green eye zoo colony - probly 30 polyps

1 neon green zoo colony - probably 30 polyps

2 florida ricordia 1 green,1 orange

1 green nephyilia(sp?) leather

1 VERY large woods polyps colony

and of coarse all sorts of tiny frags and mushrooms.

Kirklan wrote: Lost - None of those corals use up calcium at any noticeable rate that's why they are called softies, they do not need caclium to build up a skeleton.  Do not add corals with the idea that they will help lower your calcium problem.  You are going about this in the wrong direction or in reverse.  You need to get your calc levels down before adding the corals, otherwise you will be messaging us once a month with "my tank had a crash".  FYI I have been using Oceanic salt and it is extremely high in calcium and too low in Alk.  I would recommend swithing to Instant Ocean or maybe going half and half to help lower your calc.

ok i did not know that thanks! so softies dont use calcium very much??? is it only SPS and skeletal coral that does?? i was planning on buying some SPS here soon.. which should keep it in check a little better in the future???? before i add it i tink i will do a 50% water change with instant ocean salt instead of oceanic.. any ideas on how much instant ocean is???

Kirklan wrote: I'm not trying to be an A**, but why are you trying to purchase new corals 1 day after having a crash of your system?  Something is obviously wrong and you are likely just throwing your money away.  Lets get your paramaters back where they need to be before you keep adding stock.

mainly because i believe the crash was not caused by anything other than the cold... and because the tank parameters are fine and looking good.. the calcium has been that high for a LONG time... and everything has been doing ok so far.. the only thing that i KNOW for a matter of fact that changed was the temperature.. everything still in the tank is doing fine now... chich leads me to believe that it had to have been the cause of the crash... at least thats what i have concluded... i agree that i need my calcium down.. but i do not believe that it was the cause of the system crashing....

Halameda!  Thank Suzy!  I suggested this because it is an algea that will take up calcium in growing.  This is not a permanent solution.  You still need to find out why your calcium is so high, but it could help bring the calcium down without spending tons of money on SPS and hoping they don't die because of the conditions.  I would simply put the halameda in your tank.  It needs the high lighting that is on your tank to grow well and in my opinion is a very nice addition to beautify your tank as well.  I'm sure someone on the board has some they would part with for just a few $.

I agree with the other posts that you need to fix the condition before adding a bunch of SPS, but I'm not sure about soft corals.  At most adding more softies would be risking your investment and thier lives, but I personally doubt they would be affected.  I'm no expert on this however.

I also agree with not doing more than 20-25% water change.  Do one now and one in 2 weeks if you feel you need a 50% change.

i actually did one on sunday, i think ill go home and check my calcium and see if it went down. i did a 25% change on sunday with oceanic... ill have to try the new salt.. which sucks because i was going to start buying premixed from ryan...

i currently have some montipora in my tank but it died from algae growing all over it.. also died from the lights being really really crappy...

800 ppm calcium is higher then oceanic salt mixes to.  My oceanic mixed up to about 550 - 600 ppm at 1.026 sg.  What else are you adding to your tank that could be contributing to the calcium level?

The problem, as I see it, with high calcium levels is that it becomes hard to maintain proper alkalinity levels.  This causes your pH to swing more then it otherwise would.  What is your alkalinity (don't answer "good", that doesn't really help )?

honestly all i have EVER added to my water is trace minerals.... i do not add anything at all... ever.. i dont even own any additives.. i have the calcium buffer but i never use it... its still 3/4 full..

and the crazy thing is that my alkalinity is always the exact same.... never sways up and down.. my PH was actually perfect as well... this is why we were all stumped...

jfinch wrote: 800 ppm calcium is higher then oceanic salt mixes to.  My oceanic mixed up to about 550 - 600 ppm at 1.026 sg.  What else are you adding to your tank that could be contributing to the calcium level? The problem, as I see it, with high calcium levels is that it becomes hard to maintain proper alkalinity levels.  This causes your pH to swing more then it otherwise would.  What is your alkalinity (don't answer "good", that doesn't really help )?

Precisely what I was getting at, but I could not explain it as well.  Alk and calcium have a direct relationship with one another.  If your Calc is 800 then your DKH is probably around 4 (should be 8-12)which leads to corals dying. 

I agree that the temp swing could have definately caused this particular crash.  However, unless you get your water parameters corrected you will continually be having problems.  Dumping more corals into the tank WILL NOT solve your calcium  and other problems.

LostCauseZ06 wrote: and the crazy thing is that my alkalinity is always the exact same.... never sways up and down.. my PH was actually perfect as well... this is why we were all stumped...

What is your alkalinity reading?

120 ppm CaCO3 (equivalant) = 2.4 meq/l = 6.72 dKH

That is ok, but on the low side.  Most people keep their alkalinity closer to 150 - 175 ppm CaCO3 or 8.4 - 9.8 dKH or 3 - 3.5 meq/l.

What is your pH in the morning just before the lights come on?  What is it just before the lights go out in the evening?

sounds like i need to buy a water test kit for myself eh??

Knowledge is power.

The most important tests for a reef aquarium are Alkalinity, Calcium and Nitrate. But Nitrate levels can be judged by the condition of the coral, so I don't own a Nitrate test kit.

I have been out and about checking tanks today. If you would like, I can run up to Riverdale and look at your tank this evening. I'll call you.

well i talked to mark on the phone last night while i was getting my water tested....

alkalinity - 8.8

calcium - 640

so things are looking on the up and up finally