Everything is Dying
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Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75129
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Topic: Everything is Dying
Posted By: Hogie
Subject: Everything is Dying
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:06pm
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I have no idea what's going on with my tank. Everything has been really happy, growth has been great tank is about 10 months old. Three days ago, the duncans were all closed up, then the frogspawn all closed, now all the sps don't have any polps out and some are starting to brown out. The clam is shut, had 1 peppermint shrimp die and some snails. The gold torch isn't fully extended and the lps don't have any feeders out like they normally do (except the acans and chalices seem normal). The fish all act fine and don't show any strange behavior. The tank is a 3x2x1 bare bottom frag tank (that I use as a display tank) and has a 20 gallon sump as well in which is macro algae and a bunch of live rock. I run a combo halide T5 lighting and a skimmer with a filter sock. I change the filter sock twice a week, do 20% weekly water change (I use Red Sea Coral Pro Salt Mix and always use RODI water). Here the tank livestock: 2 snowflake clowns 2 black and white clowns 2 anemones 1 yellow tang 1 bangaii 1 small hippo tang 1 cleaner shrimp 1 peppermint shrimp (left) A variety of lps and sps corals I ran tests last night (I use Hannah testers) Alk - 10.7 Calcium - 400 Salinity - 1.024 Temperature - 77 degrees F Nitrates (API tester) - 20 (I doubled checked my RODI and it's 0 tds) I've heard the API testers tend to run high and aren't accurate under 20, but that still is really high. I'm wondering if something could have caused a Nitrate spike. So, there have been two things in the tank that have changed. 1. I noticed a few flatworms on the glass. I treated with flatworm exit that I had, but after a day, the flatworms were still there, but I didn't have any more so I picked up some Flatworm Solution from aquatic dreams and treated with that. That took care of the flatworms. I did a water change the next day. It was about 2 weeks later that the stuff started dying. 2. I pick up a small orange sponge about the size of a quarter in diameter and two to three inches long. It became dislodged sometime and I'm guessing got chopping up in the power head because it is no where to be found. It was the next day the tank started going down. So, do sponges release toxins? I've read yes and no. Or maybe the sponge dying is why the nitrates are high? It wan't a very big piece of sponge though. If it is that, could an unseen piece of sponge still be in the tank causing the ongoing problem? Could the flatworm solution have killed up the good bacteria so the nitrates started building up and the sponge deal just pushed it over the edge? I did a 50% water change yesterday and started running carbon, but there is no improvement today. It's so sad to see everything going down hill. Help save my tank! |
Replies:
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:20pm
| It probably killed 1,000s of flatworms that you didnt see |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:25pm
| Probably, but if I understand correctly, when flatworms die, they secrete iodine which is the toxin. That would have ill effects immediately not several weeks and multiple 20% water changes later, right? |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:27pm
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photos? ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:30pm
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Flatworm exit does kill more microfauna than flatworms. Maybe that is part of the problem. I would also check salinity. -------------  |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:31pm
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And run some carbon. ------------- |
Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:41pm
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Mike is right on. I would do another w/c and get carbon in there asap. ------------- 335G Reef TOTM. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012 http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month & |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:45pm
| I'm going to do another 50% change tonight and I'm running carbon in the sock, but I think I'll put some more in the overflow. Is there any way to add more bacteria to take down the nitrates? |
Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:47pm
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I wouldn't add anything personally. A 50% waterchange will drop nitrates in half alone. ------------- 335G Reef TOTM. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012 http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month & |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:52pm
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Any recent algae growth? Phosphates? The sponge is possible, depending on type. A glass sponge going through a powerhead could definitely irritate things...think fiberglass. Some sponges are also toxic, but it's nearly impossible to know if yours was now. Any salt switches? Carbon switches? Broken bulbs? Stray current? ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 5:54pm
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I'm thinking nutrients. I use Prodibio for bacteria. What test difference do you see before and after a water change? ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 11:37pm
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Just finished up another 50% water change. I tested Nitrates before the change and after and it looked like it went from 10 to 5 ppm (it's hard to tell on those color comparisons...) Alk was 167 before and 181ppm after which looks like a significant drop from yesterday, so I'm wondering if I did something weird on the test yesterday, but either way all are in the range for alk. The flow looks good. I have a lot of flow actually and toned it down a bit and nothing has moved or changed patterns. The skimmer isn't pulling out much stuff, just the normal amount. I was towards the bottom of my salt bucket (about a quarter bucket left) and I remember your problems with the salt (Nikki) and so for the water change yesterday and today I used a new bucket and stirred up the salt in the bucket before I used it. Bulbs are all working, no cracks. They are 9 months old, so I think I'm going to get new ones and tomorrow and change them out, but I don't see that causing such a quick, dramatic die off. I wasn't running carbon before yesterday. Last night was the first time I put some in and I added a second back today. I rinsed the carbon to get the powder out before I put it in. I'll grab something to check for stray current tomorrow. Algae growth hasn't been to out of the norm. There was a little more on the glass, but not much. |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 03 2015 at 11:56pm
The tank 5 days ago...   The tank now... Frogspawn   Torch  Duncans  Duncan Yesterday  Not sure what this is but it's gone brown.  JF Jingle Bells (browned)  ORA Spongode (browning)  Birdsnest (No polyp extension)  Poci on Right has not polyp extension and the ever durable been through everything orange digi has no polyp extension  Green Slimer (brown no polyps)  The acans still look good  You get the idea...all the SPS have 0 polyps out. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 6:42am
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I see the domino effect happening here and probably continue downhill. Has the anemone died? The cause of this mishap doesn't matter at this point, it can be figured out later. Right now I would get all the coral out and into an established tank temporarily until they recover. Aloha, Mark  808-345-1049 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 7:18am
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It's later. First off, I would ask the same questions as ReefdUp. And then, here are my thoughts regarding reasons for the mishap: - insufficient biofiltration capacity to handle an increasing bioload, especially sudden deaths - not running AC (All reef tanks must run AC to remove toxins) - too large combined with too frequent water changes (animals would rather live in older, stable water) - inappropriate organisms added (orange tree sponge always dies from starvation) - trying to reduce Nitrate level when it is not in the danger zone (over 40 ppm) (Nitrate is food) - unknown PO4 level (minimal PO4 level is food) - changing light bulbs when unnecessary and not the problem (new lights cause coral shock) - insufficient invertebrate food growing naturally in the system(malnutrition/death -> domino effect) As always this is just my opinion, based on what I see in the pics and writings/explanations. My opinion may not seem scientific to some, it's only based on many years of intense experience. Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: uppree
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 7:28am
| Three weeks ago my tank was dying too because of copper from a brass connector. All of my corals shrunk, my Monticaps turned brown, but my Acan was alright. It might not relate to your issue though. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 7:37am
Food for thought.  An organism expends energy looking for food(extended polyps). An organism becomes exhausted when food is not acquired. An exhausted organism is prone to sickness and even death. A decomposing organism pollutes the water with toxins and more. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 9:38am
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Thanks for the help everyone. Both anenomes are doing great and are showing no signs of ill effect. The clowns still are in them constantly. I've moved some of my favorites out into another tank, but it's full. I don't think the sponge was a tree sponge as it was growing on the underside of a rock in the tank from whence I got it. I didn't have active carbon running before (I do now) as I figured a 20% weekly change would remove toxins. Is a 20% weekly water change too much? It seems like everywhere I read all articles stress water change, water change, water change. What is the danger zone for nitrates? In my reading, I thought for a mixed reef tank it's best to be under 5 ppm. I haven't change the bulbs, so they are 9 month old bulbs and shouldn't stress it out. I don't think it was a food thing because it was really sudden. It was over night everything went to heck. I'll check my PO4 levels tonight. I don't know of any brass connections being used, so if there is, is in a piece of equipment, but as all of them are marine equipment, I think that is unlikely. Is there anyone around Davis county who can house some corals? |
Posted By: Pete Moss
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 9:47am
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I have always done weekly 20% water changes. Never had any problems. I do mix my salt for at least a day though, and make sure salinity and temp are perfectly matched to my display. I always run carbon, always have, always will. If you do a larger water change, then run some carbon and phosban your issues will clear up. Sps will likely take a while to get it's color back. I would offer to house some corals, but I just upgraded tanks and am going through a small cycle right now. ------------- 125g 90g 2x33g 34g What stores do I recommend? Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 ) Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 ) Member of GCFB |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 10:06am
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Nitrates of 20 should not be the cause at all. Not that I know anything but obviously some parameter is off, why? I don't know, could be something died, temp spike/drop, salinity off, I don't like my alk above 9 but that's because I know my tank cant handle it, other peoples tanks are fine at 12. Dead snails can reign havoc on a tank if you are not running carbon (think I see one in that pic with the tang). 20% water changes in my opinion while not bad (if like Pete does everything is matched) but if not that could be an issue, I just don't see the need (80% change out a month?) unless you are not dosing alk or calcium and rely on water changes to replenish Alk/Cal/Mag.. but that is an expensive and time consuming route (I've done it too but changed long ago), but maybe you have some some crazy bioload, that tank looks bare bottom so that would also seem to be a reason more frequent water changes could be needed. My salt never mixes up the same, even from same bucket, even when bucket is rolled so unless your matching all parameters pretty close your just introducing a potential to throw things out of wack, I'm not saying that is what happened just what could have happened. I hope things improve. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 10:47am
| The flat worm exit you used didn't include instructions to immediately suck out all the dead or dying flatworms that you could get to in the tank? also i believe the carbon should be changed very shortly after using that stuff because it becomes permeated from the toxins released by dying flatworms. |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 11:39am
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I don't dose and do rely on the water changes to replenish elements. My water mixing station is set up so it does mix a day in advance with pumps and heaters and I make sure it matches salinity and temp before I change it. I have it sent up so water changes are pretty easy and slick. I know each bucket can be different, but problem started when I was 3/4 through a bucket, so it wasn't a new bucket and before a use a bucket I mix it up so it should be pretty uniform throughout the bucket. The flatworm solution does say to do a water change, but it also says if the flatworms don't die, add another half of the dosage and wait it out some more. So, that's what I did as the flatworms didn't die. I did do a water change, but it was several hrs after dosing and then the next day too. I was thinking the water change was to get rid of the toxins from the flatworms which is what I read, but thinking about it now, maybe its to get rid of the chemical itself so it does stay too long in the tank and wipe out the good bacteria. It's just weird at how fast it went down. It was really everything good when I went to bed and gone the next day. |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 2:12pm
| I dropped a volt meter in at lunch and it showed 5 volts which is basically nothing. |
Posted By: Pete Moss
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 2:22pm
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Honestly my best guess is the flatworms dying off and the lack of carbon. Think your tank should recover quickly now that you've added some carbon. If you want phosban or more carbon I have plenty at my place. ------------- 125g 90g 2x33g 34g What stores do I recommend? Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 ) Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 ) Member of GCFB |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 2:36pm
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Flatworm exit says to run extra aeration in the tank during the treatment period and some time after. Did you do anything to increase aeration in the tank? I wonder if you are seeing these results from a drop in oxygen levels or rise in Carbon Dioxide levels? Just trying to think of things that haven't been thrown out here yet. ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Pete Moss
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 2:47pm
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Good thinkin' Krazie! Didn't even think about that at all haha. ------------- 125g 90g 2x33g 34g What stores do I recommend? Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 ) Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 ) Member of GCFB |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 3:07pm
| How do you check that? Would that affect the fish more than the corals? |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 3:12pm
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It could affect both. High CO2 would cause low PH which would make corals not very happy. Low Oxygen levels would stress fish more than corals but would still affect both. ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Pete Moss
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 3:14pm
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This is why we keep Krazie around. ------------- 125g 90g 2x33g 34g What stores do I recommend? Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 ) Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 ) Member of GCFB |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 10:33pm
| Well I got the corals out and housed in another tank (a huge thanks and shout out to Kevin for letting take over his frag tank). I had another thought. I got a different glue and glued down a bunch of frags and it was a few days later everything was when everything went bad. Could it be the glue? |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 10:39pm
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What kind of glue was it? ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 04 2015 at 10:46pm
| Loctite ultra super glue gel. I've used the Loctite super glue gel (normal blue one) for yrs without a problem, but they just replaced thatproduct with a new one that supposedly has better gel control and they call it the ultra and now comes in a black container. |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: March 05 2015 at 4:35am
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It is still cyanoacrylate, right? If so, then no. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 05 2015 at 5:59am
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Good discussion. My opinion is that because there are so many things that need to be in balance, if several things are slightly off balance, and then along comes another thing that tips out of balance, a tank crashes. Any of these things could have been going on, from Alkalinity to water changes and from lack of biofiltration to flatworm treatment. Even lack of food which I suggested earlier as too little N compounds in the water, could cause something, such as the entire population of a particular bacteria to die en mass. Bacteria is the unseen "organism" we often talk about, but cannot see. I'm just speculating, but that could have been the first domino to fall. It's not often that I suggest this sort of multiple-off-balance hypothesis as a possible reason for a tank crash, but it seems appropriate to bring it up here. A good follow-up discussion might answer the question of how to bring things back into balance and how to ensure better stability from here on. I have some ideas, but would like to read what you all think. Aloha ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: phys
Date Posted: March 05 2015 at 11:29pm
| No other chemicals used for cleaning in the room or anything you put in the tank? Glass cleaners, bug spray, carpet cleaning solutions, etc? |
Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:17am
| Nothing...I've heard a lot of horror stories about cleaners and such, so we're very cautious about that. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 8:19am
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Just wondering how everything is doing today? May we see a pic of the Sump? What Skimmer? Exactly how much was/is it pulling out? Refugium? Macroalgae growth continuous or stunted? Harvesting at what rate? Bugs and worms somewhere in the system? Sand bed in the Refugium? PO4 level? A comment about something said on page 1, a Nitrate level of 20 ppm is not "really high", IMO. I consider 20 ppm within an acceptable range. If a test kit can be inaccurate at low detection levels, that means the true level could even be zero. There are good systems with stony coral even healthy SPS, running at or above 20 ppm. Because each tank is different and has it's own balance, I would suggest caution not to 'chase numbers'. That usually leads to issues. Aloha, Mark
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Hogie
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 8:14am
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I'll get a pic of the sump later today. It does have any sand in it, but does have a bunch of live/rubble rock. I have chaeto and red graciliaria in it and it's been growing well. I flip the chaeto about once a week. There are a lot of pods in the system both in the display and sump as well as bristle worms and spaghetti worms. The live rock is covered with those mini feather dusters. I think it's Atlantic live rock because it also has a bunch of these little tiny anenomes on it (not aphasia or majanos) nut the don't seem to be a problem. It also has a bunch of white small tubular sponges and some other kind of white sponge that grows on the underside of the rocks. The skimmer is an eshopp skimmer but I'm not sure what ever model. I run it pretty wet and it pulls out 1/2 to 3/4" a day. I usually run it every other day. One quick question, how often do I need to change out the carbon in the bag? |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 11:30am
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AC gets exhausted/saturated within ~2 weeks. Flipping the Macroalgae weekly?, but that didn't say whether it is growing and at what rate it is being harvested? For example, how often is half removed to reduce the ball of Chaeto to it's previous amount? I was wondering if the coral are looking better and what the PO4 level is currently? Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 11 2015 at 7:34am
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Update? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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