Ich!!!! Help
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
Forum Description: If you have an Emergency post here and you should receive a quick reply.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64308
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Topic: Ich!!!! Help
Posted By: Dan9554880
Subject: Ich!!!! Help
Date Posted: May 10 2013 at 9:43pm
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Well I week ago I got a moorish idol from liverocknreef (Wednesday) and on the second day it show some white spots, then it got worse. When I started to feed it clams it started to disappear and on Wednesday of this week I ran out of clams and he got worse and my hippo tang started to show spots. Now my yellow, hippo, idol, and some on my flame angel has show spots on their body. I know that I should have quaratine the fish before but I don't have one set up. I have fought ich before with the hippo and he recorver from it. But now I have more fish with it. What I use that time was ich attack, uv sterlizer, good diget, and a cleaner wrasse. But now I'm lacking on the uv sterlizer. I was thinking of using ich attack on the main tank. Or I could set up a 20 long for a quaratine, but which one will be best thing to do. I don't want to stress the fish more by moving them and that's why I'm thinking it will be best to use ich attack. What do you guys think will be best throng to do? Thank you ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Replies:
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: May 10 2013 at 10:29pm
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Do it right...go with the quarantine. However, a 20g is not sufficient for all those fish together. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 10 2013 at 10:41pm
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That's what I was thinking so should I just treat the main tank? I know that the ich will still be there even if I don't see it ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: May 10 2013 at 11:11pm
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In-tank treatments just reduce outbreaks and help control infestations. Out-of-tank treatments can eliminate the problem. Do you want to control the problem and deal with this as it crops back up, or do you want to never deal with this again? ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 2:00am
| Best thing is to get them out of the main tank and treat them out of it... This takes 6-8 weeks to get the main tank cleared. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 8:19am
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Aloha Dan, So sorry to read about your infested Moorish Idol. They are awesome fish. By far the easiest thing to do immediately, if you haven't already started, is to feed Garlic Oil(GO). Better than 75% of the time, this helps clear the fish of Ich. It can't hurt. Here is the link on what GO from the grocery store works best and how to use it. "Secrets of adding new fish, fish training and the miracle of Garlic Oil" http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014 (not sure why the change in font size, sorry)I have respect for those who chose to take the time to quarantine new fish and place sick fish in hospital tanks, but my experience in using GO has been so overwhelmingly positive, hardly ever losing a fish to Ich, without quarantine, that I call it a miracle prevention. Of course I also recommend acclimation containers and growing a tank in such a healthy way as to practically eliminate fish stress. GO works awesome for me, but it is not the cure, nor the complete answer to healthy fish. Mahalo for reading, Mark  Best of luck with your MI. They were the first fish I saw and photographed when we first arrived in Hawaii back in 2010.  and a closer shot  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 8:53am
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Thanks for the info. I'll try and see if I can find that garlic oil. Well the problem is that I can't set up a bigger tank than the 20 due to space and money. So it will be really hard to leave the main tanks fallow for a few weeks because they won't all fit in a 20. Does anyone have other idea of how to get the idol to eat besides clams ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 9:34am
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Update well I found the idol dead And the yellow and flame angel looks clean Now is only the hippo with the spots I'm going to try feeding it foods with garlic so he can fight it off (again) ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 10:06am
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Unless I'm behind on some new scientific study, there's not a whole lot supporting garlic as a treatment. "evidence to support garlic's effectiveness or lack thereof, for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans is anecdotal (Bartelme, 2003a. Cortes-Jorge, 2000)." In fact, most of the evidence backing garlic as a treatment stems from studies done on freshwater ich (completely different parasite.) Recommending aquarists use an unproven treatment for a deadly parasite is not a part of responsible reefkeeping. If there are no other options, it can't hurt to try. But, I only think unproven treatments should be used as a last-ditch method. Edit - I'm sorry for the loss of your Moorish Idol. It was a beauty. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 11:04am
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From what I know is that garlic helps their immune system so they can fight off infections and such. Also it stimulates them to eat. ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 11:21am
| Be sure to feel you fish everyday until you see it gone. They'll need the food to fight the ich. Also, I noticed when a cleaner shrimp is put in, the fish seem to do better. Possibly by either removing parasites at the skins surface or just by providing relief for them. Its not really a proven thing tho. |
Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 12:32pm
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Yeah I feed them at least 3 times a day. I have a pair of cleaner shrimps but they hide a lot and also a cleaner wrasse which the tangs love to get clean by him ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
Posted By: TriggerHappy
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 12:36pm
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I agree with Nikki, I think that it is only a bandaid. Gotta go fallow. I too am sorry for your loss. :( ------------- 210 gallon Mixed Reef |
Posted By: suiso man
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 8:09pm
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I just cleared up ich on my powder brown tank in less than a week with garlic extreme. I put 5 drops in the food at night and 8 drops on the nori. I also turned up the temp. to 78 for 4 days. good luck. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 8:33am
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We need to remember that the Ich parasite is not an infection caused by a bacteria or a virus. A parasite is a little invertebrate animal. In an environment where the conditions are healthy for fish and coral, around 90% of the time in my experience, Garlic Oil seems to cause most of the parasites to leave the host fish. When used during new fish acclimation and introduction, about 90% of the time Ich does not show up. Creating and sustaining healthy conditions is an important part of the effectiveness of any preventive remedy. Healthy condition are more than the basic water parameters. Things like ample food, good algae growth, effective aquascaping, ample water flow, friendly tankmates, etc. are all part of it. Hobbyist anecdotal evidence is as valid as scientific evidence. My father in law taught me about auto mechanics. He was not a scientist but he had learned about using logic for problem resolution. Logic suggests that we check and carry out the simple, easy things first. When the simple thing fixes the problem, it's fixed.  There is no need for scientific study.Mahalo for reading, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 9:10am
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There is no need for scientific study?!?! Are you joking? I think you're quite confused...so I'm going to try to be nice. Scientists do not design cars, nor do they repair them. So no, there was no need for your dad to be a scientist to work on a car. However, for your dad to design said car, your dad would've needed rigorous education (whether formal or informal) to understand thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, etc. Sure, an uneducated person could design a car based on copying other people's work...or just by trying a bunch of things...but I can guarantee you that it won't be something you'd want to drive. Scientific studies come about by people having a hypothesis (e.g. that garlic oil treats ich) and then objectively rigorously testing that hypothesis (with no biases or preconceived conclusions.) They then analyze the data with statistical methods to ensure their small amount of data and conclusion can be applied to most cases. The work is then peer-reviewed. So, with the garlic oil and ich example, the scientists would've had to study probably several hundred fish with various species of ich. They performed gill biopsies and studied the ich response to garlic under a microscope. They observed the ich response and documented it. Other groups of scientists repeated the studies and reviewed the work to make sure it was sound research. From what all I've read, garlic oil isn't really effective. If you have some research showing otherwise, I'd love to see it. This is comparison to you...one person...dosing garlic oil and saying that 90% of the time it works. This is without documented testing. Without gill biopsies. Without noting if there are differences in reaction with different species of ich. Without applying this same treatment to several hundred fish across several different aquarists (remember, you need to take out the human variable in treatment. Just because it works for you does not mean the same treatment will work with other people applying it.) I'm glad you have a firm belief in something and choose to follow it yourself. But, you cannot ETHICALLY recommend someone act in a known unproven method as a responsible reefkeeper. If the person had tried everything proven with no results or was acting as a researcher, then by all means...recommend unconventional treatments. But you are KNOWINGLY providing a false sense of hope. This blatant act of ignoring scientific evidence is what gives the hobby a bad name. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 10:18am
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Just to clarify my position... A healthy environment is essential, and garlic has a lot of beneficial properties. Garlic in conjunction with a healthy environment and food may be an effective control (but what constitutes a "healthy environment" will differ from person to person and is not easily defined.) It may help with the fish's immune system, encourage it to eat, or may help mask the fish for future infestations. However, that's about the extent of its efficacy. It does not kill Cryptocaryon irritans (it does kill the freshwater species though, which is where a lot of misinformation originated.) My problem is with the statements that "Hobbyist anecdotal evidence is as valid as scientific evidence", "There is no need for scientific study" and labeling garlic as a "miracle". ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Dan9554880
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 2:13pm
+1 ------------- 210 Mixed Reef 20 Nuvo nano reef Learn your tank, not the hobby |
ReefdUp wrote:Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 4:31pm
Hello Daniel, If you have won the battle before as described above, are you getting ready to do it again? That would be my best advice. Speaking of the UV Sterilizer it's funny now that I look back on it, but 10 years ago I was very vocal and serious in my disbelief that they could have any effect on Ich. Such a small amount of water runs through them, I would argue, they cannot do any good. How wrong I was. Mahalo for reading, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: phys
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 5:17pm
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Hey guys, thought i'd throw my experience with ich in here too... Really, nothing works but 100% quarantine. I've had ich in my tank and have tried reef safe chemicals, garlic, UV, cleaners, just about everything. In the end, I've found that your fish can live with ich if you keep them healthy! Running a UV sterilizer will help keep the floating parasites to a minimum, garlic will help keep you fish healthy (but will not affect ich directly), and a cleaner shrimp helps keep the fish less irritated when it has it. DO NOT use the "reef safe" chemicals. Simply doesn't not work and has side effects that I cant really pinpoint. If you do decide to do a quarantine, do the full procedure. Do not cut it short because they look healthy. This can only complicate matters further by creating resistant parasites. This goes for all things treatable in the world though. |
Posted By: icenine
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 7:59pm
No Mark, actually I believe you were right. I've never used a UV fresh or salt. I'll never forget the director of life support at the Shedd in Chicago saying they didn't use them because:
Also: Edwig Boeykens, the well known Flemish authority on koi, filtration and ponds wrote an article about this on the Pond Library which unfortunately isn't translated yet (but will be soon). He's a writer, ombudsman and editor in chief of the Belgian koi magazine. I don't think his article about UV filtration is considered controversial by anyone here. After all I am not aware of any European company that claims its UV unit will also kill pathogens. After everything has been said and done, in practise, on ponds and aquaria, UV does not make any significant difference on the pathogenic organisms. Bob mentioned costia is free swimming. This is actually a half truth. If costia can't find a host within 2 hours it dies. If it finds a healthy host the fish is not affected, and the parasite remains dormant on the fish. We need to understand pathology for this subject. There are a few simple rules: - Every healthy fish /already/ harbors several types of (microscopic) pathogens - Pathogens are normally /not/ the primary cause for the disease - A fish does not get sick because it harbors pathogens Diseases are caused primarily by: - improper living conditions - stress In a simple way, you could think of it as fruit in a bowl. If a banana goes bad suddenly it'll attract a swarm of fruitflies. See why a UV doesn't work for killing pathogens? |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:06pm
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Aloha everyone, Isn't this forum awesome! So much diversity. Here is my new creed that I have been trying to live ever since returning to Utah: - to try everything I can and share what works. - to be happy with what works for others, even though it may not work for me. - to find joy in every hobbyists success and achievement. Mahalo, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 9:17am
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With all that being said is there a reason to even use a UV? ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 9:58pm
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Aloha, Is there any reason to use UV? Yes definitely! As I tried to say above, that I was wrong when I used to say that UV could not possibly do anything to control Ich. Since that time, over 10 years ago, I have seen too many tanks where UV was the thing that stopped Ich. It hasn't always worked but it works about 75% of the time. Sometimes, after other things had been tried and failed, UV did the trick. So if you are ready to move that Moorish Idol over to your front room tank where the UV is running, especially if you tried a different Garlic Oil product with no success (because the MI isn't eating) then I say go for it. Is there any reason to use Ozone? Another thing that has helped control Ich is Ozone(O3) run through the skimmer. Many hobbyists will say that O3 should never be used without an ORP controller. O3 can be very effectively run without any control other than the dial on the unit. Start with a low output setting and increase as necessary after 3 days at each setting. With the O3 output tube in your mouth you should be able to taste the bitterness. If no bitterness, turn the dial to increase the output. If O3 is smelled outside the stand (that after a thunderstorm smell), the O3 is set too high. Too much O3 will make the coral appear and act as though they were sunburned or as though the lights had been on 24 hrs/day for a week. It's a little more difficult to see the effect on fish. They usually look fine until they die. Mahalo for reading, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 10:32pm
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Actually I have uv's on both tanks. Might be hard to believe but after dosing the garlic in the others Food there is literally no sign on my idol at all. You would never know it's the same fish. I know you took pictures of him would cool if You would post And I will post a after picture. Oh by the way I new they were good for ich. The previuos post mentioned not helpful for much else. Correct? ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 11:31pm
| Dont be surprised if it comes back in a week or so... It may have just fallen off and is in the water waiting to infect the rest of your fish. |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 9:17am
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^ agreed. By no means was I trying to implie that it was 100% gone. Call me a " irresponsible reefer" but I have No way to QT a fish this size. The other two fish are seasoned veterans. Both had ick about a year ago And pulled through. ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: improdigal
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 7:20pm
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Mark you are one of the most genuinely kind and PATIENT men I've ever met.. *hats off to you* I did want to add one note regarding this common cure for ICH, that Garlic works best as one part of a few steps. This has cured ICH in 5 of my early tanks (3 FW & 2 SW Tanks)) back before they were stable enough that it never came back. This formula will knock it out in 1-2 weeks depending on the infestation : For Both Freshwater and Salt Water Steps
Other Salt Water steps 3. Fire Shrimp, Cleaner Shrimp, Peppermint Shrimp and Cleaner Wrasse... IMMEDIATELY - These will rip the parasites off your fish that are killing them RIGHT NOW... so they can survive the week of treatment
Other FreshWater steps (for those interested - curing ICH in FW was much more difficult in my experience)
Other Steps I've never tried and thus have no experience with:
Here are some related articles (ok I admit just the first 10 items that came up when I googled how to cure ICH": http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-archives/3078-how-do-you-treat-ich-garlic.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-archives/3078-how-do-you-treat-ich-garlic.html http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080520170139AAq6M9u" rel="nofollow - http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080520170139AAq6M9u http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3870.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3870.html http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/garlic-treatment-step-by-step-4315.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/garlic-treatment-step-by-step-4315.html http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Does-Garlic-Really-Cure-Common-1777942.S.56657604" rel="nofollow - http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Does-Garlic-Really-Cure-Common-1777942.S.56657604 http://www.ehow.com/info_8349610_would-garlic-kill-whitespot-parasites.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.ehow.com/info_8349610_would-garlic-kill-whitespot-parasites.html http://ichfishick.com/How_to_cure_Ich.php" rel="nofollow - http://ichfishick.com/How_to_cure_Ich.php (site dedicated to nothing else) http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html (very technobabble collection of scientific studies) I did come across one article in my search that stated that garlic was unverified, but it was in similar "Macintosh rules, Windows is for losers" type of tone and lacked the professionalism expected from a true scientific study: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/" rel="nofollow - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/ I found 3 other sites pointing to this link as proof that garlic is rubbish, but that was in 2 pages of links saying it works LOL
------------- Patrick |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 16 2013 at 7:26am
Mahalo Patrick.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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