Stray Electricity
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Main
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Posts that don't fit in any of the other categories.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4865
Printed Date: September 19 2024 at 3:34pm
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Topic: Stray Electricity
Posted By: Kevin
Subject: Stray Electricity
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 5:58pm
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Recently I found out that there is stray electricity in my tank. I found out because I had a small sore under my finger nail and I noticed that when I put that finger into the water it hurt (and no not just because of the salt water). If I repeated the process multiple times the pain slowly went away, but if I left the tank for a while (say 10 min) the shocking feeling would come back. So I went through the process of unplugging everything and replugging it back in and I think I may have narrowed it down to my titanium heater. So now the question is, how bad is stray electricity? Does it hurt anything in the tank? Also what is the best method of correction? Is it best to put in a grounding probe or to replace my heater? |
Replies:
Posted By: bugzme
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 6:39pm
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replace your heater and then add a grounding probe. ------------- Jeff 125 tank 50 gallon sump T-5 lighting Rum drinker, Carbon User I KNOW ROCKS THAT ARE YOUNGER THEN ME!! I AM A Realist! I write what I think!! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 7:09pm
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I use to "feel the buzz" every time I'd put my hand in the tank. I think from lighting fixture. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: reptoreef
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 7:51pm
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I have a titanium ground probe and still feel a very slight buzz in sores when I put my hand in the water every great once in a while. ------------- www.captivereefing.com |
Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 8:07pm
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If it's your heater then I would probably replace it. It's a failure just waiting to happen. A grounding plug is probably a good idea too. High frequency (electronic) ballasts will induce a voltage into metal objects close to the bulbs such as the reflector. Grounding the reflector will reduce/eliminate this. I don't think you want electrical current flowing through your tank... I've heard it can play havoc with fish's lateral line. ------------- Jon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing... |
Posted By: rstruhs
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 10:02pm
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I say toss the heater and DO NOT replace it! Try running for awhile without a heater to see if you really need it! Maybe you will find out you just need more lights instead! ------------- Rodney, Sandra, Jeffery, and Laura Struhs South Jordan, Utah 98th South & 40th West. (801) 282-2744 75 gallon reef 55 gallon reef 55 gallon FOWLR 20 gallon FOWLR |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 10:57pm
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I agree with RStruhs. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 03 2005 at 11:41pm
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I found out for sure it was my heater. I forgot that last night I unplugged the heater to see if that was it for sure. When I got home today I saw that the heater was unplugged and so I stuck my finger in and there was no electric feeling. So then I plugged it back in and went about checking things. When I tried it again about 5 mintues later OUCH. It really hurts on that finger. As for trying it without the heater, my tank was at about 72 degrees at 5:00 after having my metal halides on for 7-8 hours. I don't think it will be a good idea to go without a heater. Dumb thing cost me 30 bucks and I don't think it is even a year old  . Oh well, I guess I will look into getting it replaced. Obviously the titanium brand is out. What else does everyone recommend? An Ebojagger? I have an old Ebojagger that used to be in there but I thought it started to go bad (thats why I got the new heater). Even so I have been using it on a freshwater tank for a few months now with great results. Probably should go with new just to be safe
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 12:42am
Another titanium heater bites the dust. They are crap. Ebojagger is the absolute best IME. 72 is an acceptable temperature. Go without a heater and see if you notice any problems or any less beauty to the tank.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Connie
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 5:04am
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You can also raise the temp by running the lights longer. I run 3 250 wattt for 12 hours per day. My temp ranges from 77 to 79. ------------- I have flying monkeys and I'm not afraid to use them. 180 gallon money pit that I love..... |
Posted By: jglover
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 9:13am
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yes but it could drop significantly in the middle of the night when the lights are off I wouldn't attempt it cold. If you would like to see if you need a heater turn it down and see what the temp is at 5:00 AM. Or just use your thermostat. As for the heater I preffer two cheap ones better than one big one. that way there is a back up plan. and your old heater would make a great ground probe. |
Posted By: Carl
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 11:31am
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Where is the tank at? Is it in a basement? What is the ambient temperature around the tank? Can you run the heater in the sump instead of the main tank if you absolutely need one and if so do you have enough buffer time to do any good heating the water this way? Maybe just get your fish some flannels? ------------- In Syracuse "I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting." - Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf |
Posted By: popplc
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 12:12pm
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I'm glad you "Tossed the heater" BUT remember one thing... if you feel electricity, it's because there is a difference of potential between you and the tank. The problem will probably get worse if you have a problem, and it's likely that you will be the one to suffer. It would be a wise idea, because of the water in our tanks, and the possibility of getting electrocuted, that we all use a Ground Fault Interrupted (GFI) circuit on our systems to protect ourselves, and our investments against a water caused electrocution. There is a caution on the tag on my wives blow drier that cautions the user against using it while in the tub, so why risk a faulty heater in your aquarium. |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 1:51pm
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The tank is at a mid/lower level in the house (it is a split level). The ambiant temp in the house is around 76 (or so my thermostat says) but I would guess between 70-72 degrees where the tank is at. As for where the heater is, it is currently in my refugium and it keeps my tank at 78 degrees. As far as the GFI goes I have one. I would HIGHLY reccommend a GFI to everyone. Its only 10-30 bucks and it has potentially saved my tank/home on more than one occasion. For example, I recently purchased a skimmer and in trying to set it up the pump that pushes water into the skimmer popped off and sprayed water all over the place. I didn't think much of it and I cleaned up the water somewhat. The next day when my lights turned on the GFI tripped. Come to find out that water had leaked into my MH ballast and that was what was causing the GFI to trip. That could have turned into a bad situation without a GFI. |
Posted By: smatney
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 1:55pm
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Kevin, I had a titanium heater overheat my tank. I don't trust them at all. ------------- Susan Matney Farmington, UT |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 4:09pm
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Throw the heater away IME. I haven't used heaters for 5-6 years and probably never will again. I don't recommend heater unless your tank is outside or in a cold basement. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 4:23pm
Do titanium heaters fail more than glass ones?  I am running 3 of them and have never had a problem. I have one glass one that is stuck on permanently(Via Aqua I think) and an Ebo jager that worked fine but now you have to turn it almost all the way up to get it to turn on.------------- Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT) 300g reef "A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud." Ayn Rand |
Posted By: bugzme
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 6:38pm
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Doesn't the temperature fluctuations affect the tank in general? I keep my house at 74 degrees so I would have a 5 degree swing from morning to night. ------------- Jeff 125 tank 50 gallon sump T-5 lighting Rum drinker, Carbon User I KNOW ROCKS THAT ARE YOUNGER THEN ME!! I AM A Realist! I write what I think!! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 11:08pm
Why did you have the ballast inside where the water is? I'm sorry to hear of your mishaps, but thank goodness for you, that GFI's were made! Everyone please note: Important rule of tank set-up: Mount ballasts, power strips, etc. out of reach of water, especially not on the bottom of the stand!!!! I've never used a GFI and never needed one(knock on wood) because I keep all electrical connections away from where the water can get.  Oh, and a temp fluctuation of 5 degrees night to day is no big deal. I recently bought a Marineland "Stealth" heater at Fish-4-U made of a black plastic/ceramic material that is not supposed to overheat and won't break like a glass encased heater. It's still too new of a product to have any history but it looks promising.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Kevin wrote:Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 11:21pm
You'll have to pry my heater from my cold dead hands  .------------- Jon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing... |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 04 2005 at 11:33pm
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I don't mean to keep my electrical connections near water but I don't have a choice. I have 2 large HOB refugiums that sit on a stand behind my tank. On the shelf under them is where my electrical connections sit. If I were to try to change it my only choices would be to get rid of the refugiums, or try to figure out a way to put them inside the stand. I don't like the idea of that much heat and electrical equipment going into the stand, and I don't like the idea of cutting holes in the back of the stand to accomidate this, so my only other choice is the GFI. As far as not using a GFI, I don't think it is nessecary for everyone but it is definatly a great safety precaution. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 05 2005 at 12:04am
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Yes, I see that you may feel that you are positioned betwixt two opposing solids. How about hanging the ballasts on nails on the side of the stand? How about mounting them on the top or back side of the hood? A shelf under the refugiums is just such an inanely prime spot for water. I recently had an overflow accident that would have fried something. There is plenty of room next to the Refugium to set the power strip with timers but because I hung it over a nail inside the stand, the water which filled the bottom of the stand touched no electrical connections. The extra power cord coiled on the bottom was submerged but that's no problem. BTW, the pond liner that I lined the floor and bottom 5 inches up the side of the stand held the water so it didn't run out onto the floor and ruin the carpet.  I guess what I'm saying is that there is a way and I suggest that you figure it out. Trusting your expensive equipment to a GFI which can fail is unwise. Yes, they fail. There was a thread just last summer where it happened to someone in this group and if I'm not mistaken it caused a fire. Heaven forbid it results in another fire, but the next time it happens to you, you may have to buy a new ballast...an expensive mistake that, with a little change in design, could have been avoided. my 2 cents ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 11:35am
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Hey everyone I'm writing an article on this subject. I'm going to use the posts here as personal experience stories. If anyone else has stories or useful info regarding electricity in tanks, please let me know. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 1:31pm
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Since this was brought up again I thought I would post my final results. I removed the heater and put in an old ebojagger that I had in another tank. I then tried my own little repair thing on the titanium heater by siliconing around the plastic parts where I thought leakage was occuring and the put it in the fresh water tank I had taken the other heater from. Good news and bad news from this. Good news -- The freshwater seems to have no stray electricity. Bad news -- My Saltwater tank still does. I have no idea what is causing the electricity leakage in my reef tank because it seems difficult to detect. I have to depend on a sore finger to feel a twinge and it seems to detect a twinge on more than one electrical device. Finally I became frustrated and made my own grounding probe with an extra plug and the extra stainless steel rod I had around. It worked great and I no longer feel a twinge. I plan on replacing the stainless steel with titanium rod when I get up the motivation to do it (yes I found some titanium rod). As for the DIY grounding probe it was easy. Take a 3 prong plug and rip out the 2 flat prongs and fill the holes with silicon. Then strip the green wire on the other end of the cord and attach it to some sort of metal rod (preferably titanium) (and to make sure copper never got into my tank water I siliconed the wire and rod togeather). Then bend the rod so that one end sticks into the water in your tank, and the other end (with the cord attached) hangs on the outside of the tank. Finally just plug in the remaining round prong on your plug with the matching round hole of any electrical socket and you have your self your own grounding probe. BTW, I recommend to anyone that does DIY projects, to cut the cords off of any appliance that you are throwing away and save them. They come in handy. |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 1:36pm
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I have a million (okay maybe not a million) power cords with grounds. If anybody ever needs one or more please let me know. They are free! ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Carl
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 1:45pm
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Jake, I would like 999,999 of them. I'll leave the other one for whoever else might need it. I don't want to be greedy! Just kidding, I'm set on power cords. ------------- In Syracuse "I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting." - Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 1:58pm
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Jake- I'll take a couple when I come to get the refract. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 5:22pm
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This is why a voltmeter is handy in identifying your stray voltage culprit.
------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 6:04pm
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I don't have a volt meter. So the cheepest next best thing was a finger twinge I guess I could borrow my dads. If I have a grounding probe in there do I still need to worry about stray current? I guess my question is, if I know something is producing stray current is it ok to get a grounding probe and let it be, or do I figure exactly what is causing it and get it out?
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: January 26 2005 at 7:18pm
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Kevin- I am exploring those exact questions. Maybe I'll bring my meters to your house. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: January 27 2005 at 1:29am
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Good questions. Looks like Adam might answer some in an upcoming article.\ I think it really depends on how much stray voltage you have. In most cases a grounding probe is sufficient IMO. I doesn't hurt to look for the problem if you have a voltmeter. Usually I find the biggest stray voltage creators are powerheads and non-grounded lighting. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: January 27 2005 at 9:49am
| Adam, your more than welcome to come on by. I have access to a volt meter but I don't feel like going and getting it. I have too many other projects going on right now. |
Posted By: rstruhs
Date Posted: January 30 2005 at 11:17pm
When I quickly read Jake's response, I misread "voltmeter" as volunteer! It made me laugh! ------------- Rodney, Sandra, Jeffery, and Laura Struhs South Jordan, Utah 98th South & 40th West. (801) 282-2744 75 gallon reef 55 gallon reef 55 gallon FOWLR 20 gallon FOWLR |
Posted By: sjlopez39
Date Posted: January 31 2005 at 1:15am
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I know that the point of this topic is stray electricity. However I wonder if the temp drop that occurs due to lights out might be beneficial since there is more dissolved oxygen in water with a cooler temp. My reef tank has been heaterless for about 5 years. ------------- Keep your hands and arms inside the tank and enjoy the ride! Steve |