Two-Part Dosing - Rookie Question
Printed From: Utah Reefs
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Forum Name: Reef Chemistry
Forum Description: A place to discuss reef chemistry.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68735
Printed Date: December 19 2025 at 10:49pm
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Topic: Two-Part Dosing - Rookie Question
Posted By: JayTee
Subject: Two-Part Dosing - Rookie Question
Date Posted: January 02 2014 at 3:04pm
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I have had a fairly successful reef setup going on four years now. I have been using off the shelf two part chemicals (Thrive, most recently), and as we all know, its expensive. My LFS has told me that is what they use. Not sure if that is to sell me on it, but I can imagine what it is costing them. I have looked into BRS bulk chemicals, but again, my LFS has said that it is dangerous in the sense that you can overdose, and that the off the shelf stuff takes the guess work out of it. Can anyone provide input with their experience. I have a funny suspicion that everyone here will tell me to use bulk. Any info would be great. Hope to learn more about it tonight at the Frag Fest tonight if I can make it. ------------- Jeremy |
Replies:
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: January 02 2014 at 3:18pm
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I've gone both routes back and forth for many years. If I don't have a dosing system setup then I use the off the shelf stuff as it provides buffering that tends to reduce fluctuations in the system params while dosing. It seems we are all in a hurry and so hand dosing usually means dumping it all in at once. If I have a dosing system in place then I always use the bulk 2 parts (or inexpensive equivalents) as my doser will spread it out over time and not shock the system without the use of buffers. So my answer is..... it depends.  Krazie  ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 02 2014 at 3:36pm
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I have used the homemade stuff for years. IMO, take the money you save over buying the premade stuff and buy a good dosing pump. The difference between automatic and hand dosing is amazing. If you don't like making it yourself, you can always switch back. That being said, I still hand dose premade concoctions of things like potassium, strontium, iodine, etc. But, I only dose those after testing. Never dose without testing...I think that is where most people mess up. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 03 2014 at 10:13am
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Thank you both (Krazie4Acans and Reefdup). If I am understanding you both correctly, as long as I have dosing pumps in place to spread the dosage of 2 part out over a few hours or more, start with a low dose, and test daily to determine the amount of dosing required, I should be fine? So the off the shelf stuff is a bit safer just because of its buffering abilities? I have an opportunity to buy two brand new BRS pumps for $100 from another WMAS member. Comparing that to what I spend at the LFS, they would pay for themselves (minus bulk chemicals) in 2 or 3 months. And, taking ReefdUp's comment, and others that I have heard it from, corals love having the dosage over a larger time frame that all at once. One other question, since I am far from intelligent when it comes to chemistry, are iodine, strontium, and the other chemicals you mentioned testable? Never have tested for anything other than the basics (Nitrate, PH, Alk, CA). Haven't lost many corals over the years, but there are some that could absolutely do better than what they have. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: January 03 2014 at 11:52am
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You are understanding correctly. slower dosing over more of the day will yeild much better results than once a day dosing in larger amounts. The main difference between the off the shelf and bulk is the buffering agents. The off the shelf stuff also usually adds other trace elements like iodine, strontium and molybdenum. These may or may not be needed as water changes do add these items. Again, if you aren't testing for it then don't add it. I saw those pumps as well and thought about adding them to my system. They are well worth the money and maintenance is minimal.As far as testing the other trace elements some have test kits that are reasonably priced (Iodine/Iodide) others are either very expensive kits or lab test only. The simplest way to think of these chemicals is that corals are a puzzle and these chemicals are the pieces that link it all together. Calcium (stoney coral structures, coraline and even some plant algae), Alk (the glue that holds the calcium together), Magnesium ( the catalyst to harden the glue as well as keep the glue and calcium in solution in the water), Iodine (the Paint tube, enhances colors), Strontium and Molybdenum (strengtheners to make the stone even harder as well as create more mass). Each of these has other effects but these are their basic main needs in the reef. I'm sure I got at least one of those partially wrong so if I did someone please correct me. I'm an Engineer not a Chemist. Hope that helps a bit more. Krazie ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 8:17pm
| Jay , on my first set up it seemed that I chased my own behind trying to keep my params where they needed to be , So I actually spent more of my time and more on test kits than was needed. Get dosing pumps then start with simple 2 part and as you learn more about dosing with pumps I'm sure other who dose from homemade supplements will share their recipes and amounts to dose. I personally use BRS 2 part . |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 8:28pm
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Red Sea makes a good iodine, potassium, and iron kit. Salifert has a good strontium kit...and I am sure there are others out there. Honestly, most people dont need to test or dose all of that. But, there may come a time where your corals use the trace elements faster than your water changes replace them. If your colors are good with good parameters...then I would not worry. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 8:45pm
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Thank you for that input. And coincidentally, I am also an Engineer, not a Chemist. Also, I didnt do enough research. I purchased the same pumps you were looking at tonight. I did not realize that I need a very accurate timer or a controller. I do not have a controller, and not sure when I will be willing to cough up the $300-$500 to pick one up. I have found digital timers that will do one minute increments, but not sure I want to trust them. So I am going to try to brainstorm some things that I can "engineer" to utilize the pumps without a controller. But on that topic, if you are still debating them, I might be willing to sell them and wait until I have the cash to buy a controller, and pick up the pumps then, even if I had to pay full price. As far as the information on the chemicals, very helpful. I really appreciate that. I printed it so I dont forget it. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 8:46pm
Thank you for that input. And coincidentally, I am also an Engineer, not a Chemist. Also, I didnt do enough research. I purchased the same pumps you were looking at tonight. I did not realize that I need a very accurate timer or a controller. I do not have a controller, and not sure when I will be willing to cough up the $300-$500 to pick one up. I have found digital timers that will do one minute increments, but not sure I want to trust them. So I am going to try to brainstorm some things that I can "engineer" to utilize the pumps without a controller. But on that topic, if you are still debating them, I might be willing to sell them and wait until I have the cash to buy a controller, and pick up the pumps then, even if I had to pay full price. As far as the information on the chemicals, very helpful. I really appreciate that. I printed it so I dont forget it. ------------- Jeremy |
Krazie4Acans wrote:Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 8:50pm
Thank you Akira. I was planning on using the BRS 2 part. I plan on dosing some graduated cylinders the first few days to get them dialed in before dosing the tank, then testing a couple times a day for the first week or so just to make sure I am dialed in. But yes, when the time comes and its all set up, I will be seeking advice on amounts to start with. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:04pm
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I set up dosing differently. I test...dose to get everything in the right ballpark...retest...then wait about 4 days. I then retest to determine how much I need to dose to get the parameters back to spec. Divide that amount by 4 (or however many days you went) and that is your daily dosing rate. I check and adjust mine about monthly. Also...another engineer here! :-) ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:15pm
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Jeremy, Keep the pumps. Even if you run them on 15 minute timers 4 times a day (remember they only dose 1.1mL per minute) that is better than measuring with a beaker and dumping (especially with alk and it has significant impact on pH). Keep the pumps get the digital timers that got down to 1 minute and use them. They will be more accurate than you think and much more forgiving on your system than beaker dumping. The controller can come later. ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:29pm
Interesting. Do you just go by the suggested dosing amount on the product you use? Im curious of how you determine how much to dose to get things back to spec. Wow. This post is full of geek engineers.  Go Engineers!------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:31pm
Good to know. Yeah, I think I will go that route. Found 1 minute interval timers on Amazon for around $15 each. $30 sounds much better than $300. Plus, they wont "forget" to dose like I do sometimes, so I guess it is better than using the beaker like I do now. Thank you much. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:38pm
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BRS has a dosing calculator on their site. You test your levels, put them in to the calculator (along with the size or your tank and what you want the level to be) and it will tell you how much you need to dose to get to where you want. Then test to make sure it got there and then wait 4 days and test again to calculate your daily usage. Then dose the needed amount to get you back up and set your dosing timers to keep you at that level. Beaker and user method usually gets you into trouble at some point. lol ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:38pm
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I follow Dr. Holmes-Farley's recipe for making two part, and then I use a reef calculator online to determine how much I need to dose. You just type in your measured values, ideal values, system water volume, and product (Randy's Recipe in my case)...and voila, the calculator spits out exactly how much you should dose. I am on my phone so I will post links later. Dosing is much more easy than people make it sound. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:45pm
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Great to know. I was under the impression that every tank is different (and I am sure they are to an extent), and I thought dosing all depended very heavily on livestock load. Thank you for all the pointers. Very appreciated and valuable. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 9:57pm
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It definitely depends on livestock load. If you calculate your daily usage rate, it is easy to calculate your daily dosing requirements. There is rarely a need to test more frequently than weekly...and once you have the hang of it then monthly testing should suffice. As an example, water changes are sufficient for my quarantine tank, but I have to dose nearly 300 ml per day of calcium on my display tank. My display is much larger...has a ton of sps and a clam. My quarantine just has a bunch of teeny frags that do not require much. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 10:09pm
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I see. Making sense now. And that is why you do the 4 day wait. Its finally clicking. :) I also just noticed your link in your signature. Great info there. Quite impressive. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 10:14pm
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Ok, I got tired of trying to type on my phone...I'm at my computer. I wrote up this little blurb on my website on how to mix up the two-part solution based on Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley's recipe. So, mix that up first of all. This will create a solution with a known chemical level which can then be used to dose the correct amount. http://www.reefdup.com/2012/12/16/how-to-make-2-part-dosing-solutions/" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefdup.com/2012/12/16/how-to-make-2-part-dosing-solutions/ Then, test your water. Use the website below to calculate your dosing requirement: http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html" rel="nofollow - http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html So, as an example, if you measured 7.8 dKH alkalinity, have a system water volume of 100 gallons, want your alkalinity at 10.0 dKH, and used Randy's Recipe 1 Alkalinity Part, then you need to dose 157.1 ml of the alkalinity supplement you just made. Retest about an hour later (keep in mind that you shouldn't dose high amounts at once). Dose more if required to get your chemicals to your desired levels. Your solutions may not have been mixed fully, you might've used a less potent chemical, etc....so slight variations may occur (but nothing significant). Once you have your parameters where you want them...stop. Wait several days (I prefer 4 days) without testing or dosing (keep replacing evaporated water though!) Retest. As an example, say you started at 10 dKH on Day 1, and on Day 4 you were back down to 7.8 dKH. Replug your numbers into the reef calculator. You should get 157.1 ml required. Dose that amount. You should have your alkalinity back up to 10 dKH. Then, divide the dosing amount required by the number of days without dosing (so, 157.1 ml divided by 4 days is just over 39 ml/day). If your pump doses 1.1 ml per minute, you'll need to dose for about 35 minutes each day given those example numbers. Retest weekly until you're confident in your pumps, calculations, etc. After that, retest and adjust monthly. As your corals grow, so will the need for additional supplements. Here's the science behind all this: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry" rel="nofollow - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php" rel="nofollow - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 04 2014 at 10:17pm
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Oh, and I'm only about 15 minutes from you (located in South Weber), so if you need help or want to check out my dosing stuff, let me know! ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 05 2014 at 3:48am
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So just to make it simple because all engineers over engineer . Set your timer see what it doses . Check a chart and just get close. You will see a trend as you get more stable , might require more or less, When I set mine up I dosed half of what I needed . Then added more time until it was stable. Didn't matter if I wanted 450 ca or 420 ca just a # that was the same everyday. Then a simple bump up and it stayed stable. As I always tell my boss ,,,(He's a engineer and I'm a maint Mechanic so I'm the real problem solver) "Just because you can draw an #+$ on paper doesn't mean we can make it crap! "
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Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 05 2014 at 7:12am
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Ah, but see...I was a mechanic in my previous life (airframe & powerplant).... There are plenty of bad engineers out there, but there are plenty of good ones too. Don't stereotype! :D ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 05 2014 at 7:33am
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I don't know if it was already mentioned, but if the dosing equipment is not able to dose small enough amounts, then using half strength dosing solutions is an easy fix. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 06 2014 at 2:33pm
Awesome. Lightbulb just went off. I was over engineering it. Dilution is a great solution. I am more comfortable using a digital timer until I can afford a controller now. I just read nightmares on digital timers. But this will make me more comfortable. Thank you. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 06 2014 at 8:28pm
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Did you get the BRS dosers? If so, those should work just fine. If they make you nervous, put them on a timer for a backup safety. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 06 2014 at 8:46pm
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Good doser IMO. And Nikki Just a fun poke at Engineers all I have met have taught me tons. Also fun to work with from design to finished product .
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Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: January 07 2014 at 8:27am
I did. I have the dosers, now I just need to make it to a Home Depot to pick up some timers. I currently only have a day/night power strip. And thank you for the offer for help and to check out your dosing setup. I may end up PM'ing you. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: January 07 2014 at 8:33am
Jeremy you are more than welcome to come see mine as well (closer to you than Nikki  ). We are both running controllers though so it will be slightly different than what you are going ot setup with your timers (although that's what I used for years). Nikki's will be much prettier and neat to look at. Krazie------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |