Zoanthid Problem- Why?
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Forum Name: Softies
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46006
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Topic: Zoanthid Problem- Why?
Posted By: Sculpin
Subject: Zoanthid Problem- Why?
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:07pm
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So in my parents 225 I've had a hard time growing zoanthids. They just kind of melt away. I figured if I started a Nano I could get away with growing zoanthids, however I did use the 225 too seed the tank. Once again my zoanthids are melting away in my nano. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out why it does this. Everyone I've talked to say that zoanthids need a "dirty tank" but my ORP is running around 300 in my 225 (I have no idea what the nano is but I'm sure its around there or even lower). I realized something last night as I was pondering this problem in bed. I remembered that zoanthids didn't always fair so poorly in the 225 so what did I change that could of caused this issue and what does it have in common with my nano (apart from the seeding thing)? In both my nano and my 225 I'm using this lacy kind of caulerpa (not sure of the ID but a pic is provided below). I got the caulerpa a few years ago from Bluespotted Jawfish and it has since done very very well in my sump and in my recently set up Nano. Could this be my problem? Could the caulerpa be taking vital trace elements or worse yet releasing some kind of defensive toxin into the water harming my zoanthids? I've herd of macro algae irritating coral but could it be waging war some other way? Before I start removing the caourpa from my nano I wanted to ask you guys and see what you thought, also I'd like to hear of others who have this same issue and maybe we can find some commonality and source the problem for all of us. Anyways, let me know what you think and thanks in advance.  Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Replies:
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:34pm
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First of all I'm new to the hobby so what is ORP? I had something similar to this happen to me. Alk, Cal and Mag were all in range, however my Ph checked very low. At that time I very very slowly added a Ph+ chemical and I started dosing iodine. I'm not sure which one helped out but my zoas are growing like crazy. Once Ph hit 8 I stopped dosing and it's held very well ever since. Hope any of this helps..
John
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Posted By: ptronsp
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:48pm
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This is interesting to me as well as once we started dosing with 8.4 my zoas look awesome. Maybe that's the issue Sculpin. Pam |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:50pm
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Ya know to be honest I've never actually taken a look at my PH before. I do have an aqua controller that reeds it for me and it generally says it's around 8.4. I have a cheep test kit, I'll check my nano right now. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:55pm
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Well I thought I did but I don't. I'll have to pick some up soon but something tells me this probably isn't the problem. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 8:58pm
| I just reread my post and just to clarify I still dose iodine. And you never said what ORP means!!!? |
Posted By: Josh95
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:00pm
| whats in the nano? I have a pico loaded w/ zoas and mine grow and thrive even with swings in params. the SPS is also doing good. Try not to do a large water change in a month, and post all of your parameters here. I will try to help what i can offer. also tell of the fish in the tank, also where do you place the zoas? is the Nano HQI? |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:20pm
Oh ya I'm sorry about that. ORP means oxidation reduction potential. To explain in the best way I can its a measurement of living and dead organic material in the tank. It's generally used in combination when dosing Ozone. The higher your ORP, the cleaner your water is, allowing for more light to get to your coral, and it kills parasites. The down side is it kills good stuff too. To explain Ozone, for lack of a better term it's a gas that kills organic material. Most people will buy an ozone producing unit, hook it up to their protein skimmers air intake, and the skimmer will mix the ozone with the tank water, killing all living and dead organic material. This raises the ORP and when it gets high enough, a computer or other controlling device shuts the ozone down. 350-400 ORP is optimal. 250-300 ORP is a pretty dirty tank. One of the best benefits I've found with use of ORP is that it alerts me when something is going wrong. Large drops in ORP will signal if a fish has died or something of that nature. Make sense? It sure didn't to me at first. Micah
------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
jmw wrote:Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:24pm
Fist off it's a 29 gallon biocube. I've got a total of 5 fish. Small Clown 2 Pajama Cardinals Bi-colored Blenny Yellow Gobbie Zoanthids are placed in lower the mid levels of the tank. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: jbutler
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:38pm
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I run my tanks around 430 and my zoanthids are doing great. Low ORP probably means that you are low in one of the essential elements like alk, cal or magnesium. Having low ORP also is a good indicator that your PH is low. I would shoot for the 400's. If your alk, cal and mag are at the correct levels, the PH will naturally follow as well. Have you calibrated your ph probe lately? You'd be surprised at how fast they can get out of whack. In my experience though, zoas suffer most when there are phosphates present and low iodine levels in the tank. These are probably the two most important things for zoas and palys. I run phosphate absorber 24/7 and dose iodine religiously. Hope that helps.
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Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:47pm
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To me.... 300 is not a dirty tank.... I would say 250-270 is "dirty". But my orp sits right at 300 then when I do a waterchange and/or add additives it goes down to about 260 and then slowly over 24hours raises to 280 and then back up to 300 over a few days.... but I also notice that most nights about 8 hours into night my orp raises to up to between 308-311.
Orp measures how electricity can go thru water (more or less been awhile since I read the article).. this is why it is more acurate to measure in volts... the electricity measures dissolved oxygen in the tank. More contaminents in the water the less the dissolved oxygen is. |
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 9:51pm
| Jared is right I would want my orp right around 400, if I had an ozone generator.... but still to me 300 is not a dirty tank. |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 10:01pm
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Po4 has always been trace in the 225. I've not recently calibrated the pH probe but I did just buy a new AC Apex so I'll be hooking up the new pH in the next couple of days. As for my other parameters on the 225- Ca- 400 Alk- 9.4 dkh Mag- 1200 Salinity- 1.025 Temp- 78-80.5 Lighting- 3 250w DE HQI and 2 54w T5HO I really don't think it's the pH though. I'll get a test kit to check it out and calibrate my new probe but I just don't think it is the issue. As for dosing iodine, done it with both a kent solution and lugol's iodine solution with no positive results. I even bought a iodine test kit but the reeding were inconclusive to me. I then had a LFS test it and they said it was around .005 or something like that but after asking how accurate they were I was told that iodine levels are very difficult to tell. I even read an article about iodine replacement through feeding nori and I tried that for about 6 months too. My tangs sure loved it but once again, no positive results. That said, this does bring something to mind. I know macro algae uses quite a bit of iodine and there are several types of iodine. Maybe this kind of macro is removing the necessary kind of iodine from the water that the zoanthids need. That could be a solid hypothesis. Still I'd like to get an algae expert in here. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: ptronsp
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:06pm
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Micah have you ever used Auquavitro vibrance? We really like it. Pam |
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:09pm
| thanks for the explanation sculpin. your leagues ahead of me!! |
Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: January 13 2011 at 11:17pm
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Would low iodine levels lead to the zoas melting away? I've had low levels and it just slowed growth, it didn't cause them to melt away. How quickly did they disappear? ------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 12:01am
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start dosing lugols....and get a magnifying glass to see if you have any critters on them....nudibranchs, flatworms, spiders, etc.....even if what you see isn't known to eat zoanthids, they still will irritate them causing them to close and not grow....are these newly purchased? or did you frag them from the larger tank? Did you dip them? If so, how? I personally think you have a pest problem.....most zoos will go through stages of not opening, but the melting and especially in both tanks, on all zoos, seems like you got some pests of some sort..... if you can't see anything, pull out a small frag of them and do a freshwater dip for a few minutes....then examine the freshwater to see what you got going on, if anything...good luck |
Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 8:31am
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What Jared said. Lugols is NOT a good choice. I use The "Fuel" brand. It is medical grade. I was explained all this the other night from someone in the hobby that has a Biomedical degree. But for the life of me I cant remember exactly why Lugols is considered bad. I just know it made a big difference when I switched over several months ago. ------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC) |
Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:28am
| My dad doesn't dose much and all he ever has added is alk, cal, and mag, and his zoas are growing great. He also hasn't done a water change in about a year. So I would guess that it isn't because you are missing something that you can dose. But this has me confused, so I guess I'm not much help. |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:35am
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What I'd really like to know is, who else has this problem. From there I can start figuring out what similarities I have with their tanks and maybe we can trace it back to the source. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: Lewy
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:39am
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okay so all this talk of iodine, is it the same stuff I clean my kids cuts with from the first aid kit? ------------- 40 gal w/ 20 sump |
Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 12:07pm
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I had this big colony of dragon eyes that was growing great, then I noticed they were closed all the time. Eventually I started to lose polyps. One day I decided to blast them with a turkey baster and I noticed a little green (same color as the zoas) nudibranch floating in the water. I sucked up about 20 of these little guys off the colony and it started to perk up. A week later i sucked up 10 more. Eventually I lost the colony and noticed that my other zoas were being eaten as well, so I bought a yellow coris wrasse and I haven't had a problem since. It's the only thing I've had experience with that solely targeted my zoas without anything else being effected. ------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 9:08am
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I agree with Ben. In fact, from all that you have said about the conditions in both tanks, I am almost 100% certain of it. In the large tank try to remove the Zoanthid colonies if possible, but definitely in the Nano remove the colonies and treat them as explained next. I would carefully remove the Zoanthid colonies by lifting them out in a container. This is to avoid letting the pests drain off if the Zoanthids were to be removed bare from the water. Under running tap water use an old soft bristled toothbrush to vigorously brush every inch of the Zoanthids and the rock surrounding them. Don't worry, they like a good brushing.  Do this quickly, taking no longer than a few minutes under tap water. Then, to be sure I would then dip them in a new saltwater and iodine dip (no, not the Iodine from a First Aid Kit) for a few minutes before returning them to the tank.FYI, the Caulerpa is not the problem. That macroalgae does not remove enough elements from the water to cause coral any problem. On the contrary, coral and algae live better together than apart. ORP does not indicate a visually dirty tank. In actual fact, some pretty "dirty" looking tanks have good ORP levels. Let me explain. ORP stands for Oxidation Reduction Potential. It is an indicator of the ability of the tank to decompose and oxidize, or burn up, organic matter. Good water parameters create better microscopic life in the tank, including algae and bacteria. More microscopic life in the tank results in a better ORP reading because organic matter is being decomposed better. ORP can be mechanically increased by using Ozone (O3), to physically burn up the organic matter. This artificial burning creates less need for bacteria to do the job. Oxygen normally exists in the air as O2. O3 is the three Oxygen molecule produced by lightening during a thunderstorm. The best way to use O3 in a reef aquarium is to generate a small amount and add it to a Skimmers air intake. Most Ozone Generators have the ability to adjust the amount of O3 produced. The best way to set the O3 is to start at a low level and watch the tank for 4-7 days to see if the water is clearer and coral look a little brighter because the water is clearer. Sometimes, but not always, coral polyps may extend further with O3 use. One of the great fallacies about O3 is that it should never be used without a controller. In truth, the use of a "controller" should be considered only as a safety measure, used to turn off the O3 if somehow the adjustment knob was accidentally bumped and too much is being added to the skimmer air. (Placing the O3 Generator out of the way or placing duct tape to hold the knob in place is the simple answer. ) A controller should never be used to turn on and off an O3 Generator that has been set at full production. This repeated on and off of a full "flame" of O3 is very damaging even lethal to a reef aquarium. Rather, the hobbyist can keep the O3 set at a low level and never need a controller.Maybe that's too much information for some, but I hope it's helpful to at least a few of you. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Lurkerz
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 8:22pm
| I had this problem in my Pico. For quite awhile my Zoa were doing great then all of a sudden they stopped growing and shriveled up. I tried everything but they slowly melted away. well I had a small ceramic piece in my tank and I thought maybe it was leaching something out into the water so I removed it. One week later the melting Zoas are now opening back up. So was the ceramic leaching phosphates? We will see if this is the answer. To my problem at least. Could that mean that some kinds of ceramic frag plugs have something in them that our tanks don't like? |