2 clown triggers dead..
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Topic: 2 clown triggers dead..
Posted By: herrera
Subject: 2 clown triggers dead..
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:04pm
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hey guys! i have had my 120g set up since July. i have had 3 deaths since then. Singapore angel (aug. lived for 1week)Clown Trigger (sep. lived for 12 days)
Clown Trigger(Nov. lived for 5days!!)
of course all of my other fish are healthy and worth$10 each.
the sole reason i got into saltwater was for my fasination of Clown triggers!!! lol
any input on what can be going on?
i was told wild caught clown triggers, are very hard to keep healthy. not that i'm aware if mine were wild or tank raised..
Salinity is 1.024
ph 8.1
temp 75.2-77.5 ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Replies:
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:07pm
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How did you acclimated your fish?
how healthy were they before you bought them?
did you ask if they can fed them to see if they ate?
How big were they when you bought them?
what other fish you have in there and how big are they?
Can you post a full tank picture?
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:21pm
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Where do you get them from?
------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:43pm
| What are your cal. and alk. levels? |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:51pm
| I dont think Calcium is has a factor on this. Alk seems it range since his ph is 8.1 |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:53pm
Generally ca and alk don't affect fish. In a fish system pH, temp, ammonia and nitrite are much more of a concern. So on that note: How do you acclimate your fish? Where did you buy them? Were they eating? Did they show any signs of illness? What are your pH, temp, Ammonia, Nitrite etc. ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
jmw wrote:Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 10:14pm
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I always like to know the calcium and alkalinity, athough I agree with Steve, they are less important in a fish only setup. Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels are important. How long has it been since you did a water change? What type of salt do you use? What type of source water do you use (R.O., tap water, distilled, etc.) Do you run carbon? What other fish do you have in the tank? What lights are you using (if they are DE halides are you running the glass sheilds?)? What type of rock and sand are you using? Has the tank been treated for parasites in the past (i.e. copper or other medication)?
Sorry lots of questions. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 11:41pm
wow talk about 20 questions!! overwhelmed by the help
alk 2.5
nitrate 5-10ppm
nitrite 0.25ppm
no calcium tester.
Acclimation time was 90minutes with drip system. however salinity of water from fish store would not even read on my hydrometer
 purchased all fish at Bird World.
i use tap water with conditioner.
i use crystal reef salt
140-200lbs of Fiji rock (lost track of how much LR i have.)
------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 11:45pm
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first trigger, ate fine up to his death. then 2nd trigger stopped eated just 2 days prior. triggers were babies but decent size. i would say 2 1/2" inches
i have just cheap standard lighing.
i used to have t5 in an older tank, but could never control Algea..
live stock:
3 Damsels 1"-2"
1 Huma 2"
1 Niger 2 1/2"
1 bicolor angel 2 1/2"
Tank does not have a protein skimmer.
money is tight, so i'll upgrade one thing at a time. what should be next $150 or less pruchase? Reverse Osmosis system or UV steralizer? or something else??
 ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 11:52pm
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My first thought is that your hydrometer is off. I know birdworld keeps their water at 1.024. The owner Doug is pretty anal about keeping his water parameters in check as to keep his thousands of dollars in fish and corals alive. ------------- Life is good....right? |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 11:55pm
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Bird world uses hyposalinity on their system except on the corals systems. Its around 1.009 its pretty low, usually takes me 3 hours to raise it to reef level, you havent answered what other fish you have. Picture of your tank will also help
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 11:55pm
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That would be my first thought too. What other fish are in the tank as well? I have some pretty mean fish when it comes to newbies. ------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:02am
------------- Life is good....right? |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:06am
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hydrometer is fine. i check their water everytime. i do have a refractometer, but am to lazy to use it.------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:06am
| Yes im sure im not talking about the Coral system im talking about the FO system, They told me it was around 1.009 to 1.013 when i got my foxface i check the salinity which was 1.013 they say it keeps the diseases to a minimum and looks like it works. Thats why it takes alot of time acclimating them dont want to shock them |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:14am
Hyposalinity is an effective treatment for parasites. There are lots of places that keep their fish systems at lower salinity levels. back to the parameters. Your alk is really low at 2.3, but your pH seems ok so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Your nitrite level is elevated though, it should be 0. Did you have any deaths in your tank prior to the clown triggers going? ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:18am
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Did you check how long were they at the store? usually the longer they stay the higher the probability they can survive in captivity if they are caught in the while. Ordering straight from a supplier can be risky if you dont know where the fish is caught and how its transfer is to the aquarium business
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Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:32am
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Is it even chemically possible to have a PH of 8.1 and an Alk of 2.5? Do you have a sump? Im just wondering if its maybe an oxygen issue? Also I would point that korilla up to help with gas exchange at the surface... ------------- Life is good....right? |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:34am
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i had a singapore die about 3 weeks beofe i bought the first clown trigger. and he may have been dead for a few days before i got him out, because he would always hide. so i thought nothing of it. ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 3:12am
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I would also be interested in verifying your pH level... It does seem odd to have an alk of 2.3 with a pH still being 8.1, I doubt it is an oxygenation problem or the fish would show signs of stress before death like heavy breathing etc. I would take your water sample to an LFS to have your parameters verified. ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 9:58am
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Interesting to read the development of this thread. By his own admission, Herrera is being lazy about testing water parameters and I will bet you that is the cause of his problems. First of all, it is wrong to drip acclimate a fish from the LFS for 90 minutes. Secondly, it's silly to have no knowledge of the salinity. A Hydrometer does not give "no reading"  and for a hobbyist to have spent $30-$60 on a Refractometer and can't be bothered to drip a little saltwater on the lens and look into the light is ridiculous if not irresponsible. Herrera, I hope you don't get offended, but what I see here really chaps my hide.  I hope you came here to the WMAS with an open mind, ready to learn a thing or two about responsible aquarium keeping.  The problem with Clown Triggerfish dieing has nothing to do with how much money is spent on this aquarium. Keep the $150 in your pocket. The problem has to do with learning to do things a little better so that the fish killing can stop.Maybe you don't like me very much right now, but I have been at this a long time and I know what I'm talking about. I guarantee the true pH is lower than 8.1, and even lower at night. The day to night pH swing is probably the major cause for the fishes demise but there are other problems besides pH. Regarding pH, low Alkalinity is only one of three reasons for low pH in that tank. Lack of proper water flow (right on Jeff ) is reason #2 and a stack of rock that's as tight as a brick wall is #3.And I disagree about the lesser importance of Alk and Ca because it's not a full blown reef. In my experience all marine tanks need to have Alk and Ca within range. Think about it. The fish need proper Alk and Ca to grow bones, scales and everything else in their body. Crabs and worms need proper Alk and Ca to grow their body parts. Bugs and bacteria, the backbone of the filtration system, also need to have proper Alk and Ca to build their exoskeletons and body structure. Summary 1. Test for Ca and adjust those levels so the Alk is between 3-5 meq/l and the Ca is between 350-550 ppm 2. Move the powerhead down closer to the sand and tilt it up so it shoots up and makes waves on the water surface. 3. Re-do the aquascaping to provide more large holes through the structure and move most of the LR off of the sand. 4. Post a pic of the sump. There is probably some help we can give there as well. 5. Get some Caulerpa and let it grow a little in the display. 6. Put some soft coral in the display to help with water filtration. This will also help color up the backgound so the fish will look and do better. 7. Ask us questions about anything above. There is a lot more information we can give to help you. Hope this helps.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 10:11am
What do you do? I typically drip acclimate 15-30min depending on the source of the fish. ------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: Jeremyw
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 10:20am
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I usually do 15-20 min to but 90 min! That is way to stressful on the fish! GET THEM IN THAT TANK! ------------- Next meeting: |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 12:06pm
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I am not sure we ever found out the salinity of your tank. Your nitrites should read zero, a little showing is concerning. What type of filtration do you currently have?
Here are my recommendations (Mark mentioned most of these).
Restack your rock so that water can flow through it.
If you don't have a lot of water flow purchase a few powerheads (a few korallia 4s would work well). Make sure water is flowing through your rock.
purchase a protein skimmer as soon as you can.
Consider feeding less if you are feeding a lot of there is left over food after feeding.
Run carbon until you get a skimmer (replace often).
Stop using tap water use RO (even if you have to buy it from a pet store).
The only thing I disagree with is the Caulerpa in the main tank. With a setup like yours the caulerpa can quickly grow out of control. I would use some chaetomorpha. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: smacky
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 1:02pm
| Do you have a sump? If so, post a photo of that too. The sump would be a good place to grow some macro and that would help with the nitrates and nitrites. If you do have 150 dollars burning a hole in your pocket, a skimmer would be a good investment. Depending on the size of your tank, you also might want to try using RO water from an LFS or other store to see if that helps as well. I think Good Earth has it the cheapest. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 2:06pm
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 2:00am
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would help to answer the questions if i caould read them while answering, so i'll try to answer.. First off with a Hydrometer that only reads specific gravity btween 1.012-1.032 it is very possible to get no reading..
Also it's very hard to offend me. I'm here for help, and i'm by no means a fish expert, i'm still a beginner. so looking for all the help i can come across.
those reading i listed were from the day the trigger died. which was 2 weeks ago. ive done a 15% water change since.. new readings as of tonight are
Alk 3.6 (atleast 3.6 my test card only shows 0-3.6
Nitrates 20 (has gone up!)
Nitrites 0.1
no calcium tester, will pick up soon.
PH 8.2
I honestly only do water test every so often, or when i have a problem.
i check salinity every top off (once a week)
The live rock isn't as tightly stacked as it may appear. I staggered them, and there are more than 20 gaps where a 4" fish could swim through.
I've provided as much sand area as possible.
i just use a sock for filtration rinsing out weekly.
fish is one of my hobbies that i seem to get sooo many different oppinions.
as far as how to acclimate, and how long.
salinity levels.
power head position
how long to run carbon
whether or not run a protein skimmer. which even on this board i have seem plenty of debates on.
I was told to acclimate for 3 hours at LFS as well as googling.. i thought anything longer than 30minutes seemed to long.
------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 2:01am
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is there any good RO units under $150 on eBay? ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Tresa
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 8:18am
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There are definitely many options in this hobby that all work, it is just figuring out what is going to work for you :) If you are running a sock I am assuming you have a sump? I would worry about getting a light on it and adding macro... I would also be using carbon (I use it continuously)....like Jake said, overfeeding can be a huge problem ( I am the queen) it will raise your nitrates really fast. The type of fish you have are big eaters and the filtration needs to be able to handle it. I would also take your water to a store and have them test it for you so you can compare with your results.....and while you are there you can grab some R/O and do another water change :) Acclimation times vary with everyone.. I try to base it on the situation. If the fish is stressed in the bag I think it is better to ge it out as soon as possible..... normally I acclimate for about 15-20 minutes and I always dim the lights first. I am sure there are people that will disagree with this but it works for me and (knock on wood) it has been a long time since I have lost a fish. Hope this helps!!! |
Posted By: Tresa
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 8:21am
| One more thing..... make sure you have enough surface agitation... do you have any powerheads pointing to the top of the water? |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:10am
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Herrera, There are still many questions that remain unanswered that we will need in order to help you. Nitrates are a slow mover so I doubt the Nitrates shot up that fast. How old are your test kits? You may want to consider getting some new test kits and re-test. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:33am
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I am guessing your alkalinity is in meq/L and not dKH. Also I didn't see any ammonia reading. I agree with Jake, I think you need to get new test kits and re-test everything. It would be good to know what your alkalinity really is (it could be 20 for all we know), as well as ammonia. I am no expert at acclimating a fish that comes from water that is very low salinity, but that may be your problem. It the LFS is keeping them at level much lower than what you have, you could actually dehydrate your fish by adding him to your tank. And yes, you can get a good RO off ebay for under $150. There is a thread on here from a few months ago where we discussed RO systems, and even gave links to ebay for some around $100
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Posted By: thathiep
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 5:01pm
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I would visit a fella reefer(s) to calibrate your test results. |
Posted By: Snowsrfr
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:02pm
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I'm in Ogden, but would be willing to make the drive down to Layton and give you a hand. I can bring my Ca and Alk test kits to double check. Also my refractometer. Just let me know. ------------- "A fish tank is not a pet. It's a TV that you gotta feed." - John Caparulo |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 12:46am
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The way I did this post was first to "quote" you and then remove the quotes and the text that didn't apply.
You said: "First off with a Hydrometer that only reads specific gravity btween 1.012-1.032 it is very possible to get no reading.." I say: Well, actually, the reading that would give is that the water was either above 1.032 or below 1.012. The Refractometer probably would have read it. But you know what? I don't believe the LFS saltwater was that low density. I believe the swing arm was just stuck in the lower position. It just needed to be jarred loose. I've done a 15% water change since.. new readings as of tonight are: Alk 3.6 (atleast 3.6 my test card only shows 0-3.6 I don't believe it can possibly be that high, unless you have been adding alkalinity
Nitrates 20 (has gone up!) Unless your tap water has high Nitrate, I have a hard time believing that it rose so quickly.
The live rock isn't as tightly stacked as it may appear. I staggered them, and there are more than 20 gaps where a 4" fish could swim through. You simply don't have enough experience to understand this. I have worked on over 500 different reef aquariums have seen hundreds of pictures of tanks on this MB. You don't have to believe me, but your gaps in the rock wall are nowhere near enough.
I've provided as much sand area as possible. Again you can doubt or you can believe. That sand can be opened up a lot more. Compare your reefscape to the one pictured below. fish is one of my hobbies that i seem to get sooo many different oppinions.
as far as how to acclimate, and how long.
salinity levels.
power head position
how long to run carbon
whether or not run a protein skimmer. which even on this board i have seem plenty of debates on. Let me ask you this. Whose opinions should you trust; a roomful of beginner hobbyists or a handful of experienced hobbyists. I don't know what you have been reading about protein skimmers, but there is no debate about the fact that they remove crud like nobody's business. Some people just choose to have their tank look a little different by not using a skimmer, but instead using more living organisms to eat the crud. I was told to acclimate for 3 hours at LFS as well as googling.. Here is what happened in your 90 minute acclimation: The ammonia levels rose and the pH fell. This made the water around the fish dangerous and a lot different than the water in the tank. Then, thinking you had made the water around the fish the same as the water in the tank, you put the fish in the tank and it went into severe stress while trying to withstand the shock of the different quality water. This is why the Clown Triggerfish are dieing at around a week. They try to hang on but their body was so messed up by the situation that they eventually die. i thought anything longer than 30minutes seemed to long. And finally, Are you saying that long acclimation went against your own intuition? If so, next time follow your intuition.   That's me outside the house looking through the window at the other side of the reef.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 1:31pm
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alk test is meq/l. i'm sure it's right around 3.2-3.6 because water sample does appear to be in the high rang of the color card.
I have lost my ammonia test card since last test.
still have the testers, just dont recall how much water to add to the tube sample. i use Marin Lab test kit. which is about 2 years old.I will go to LFS to have them do a water test. but i have also heard that bagging water can change water quality, and doesn't provide true test accuracy of actual tank?
i changed rock around 5 timesbefore i could get it where i was happy with the looks, and balance making sure there were none that would fall over easily i think stacking rock takes a little bit of skill. which i had a hard time accomplishing. you are more than welcome to come reposition if you want! haha.
------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 2:40pm
 ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: smacky
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 3:19pm
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You've plenty of room in the sump for some macro and I think it would definitely help things out. Try to get some algae and a cheap light to go in there. If you can't get either of those by the time I go up to see my mother-in-law (around the 18th or so) who lives in Ogden, I'll bring you some chaeto and an old light. Just leave the light on around 16 hours a day, opposite to the display light schedule. Though it probably wouldn't hurt to run the fuge light 24/7 for a while until your ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are under control. I don't think you're parameters would change all that much if you bag the water and take it directly to the LFS, and I really think it would help you get a better idea of what's going on. Make sure you ask them for the measurements, sometimes less experienced employees test it and then just tell you, "Everything's fine." When the actual numbers will help everybody figure out what the cause of the problem is. On a side note, I'm jealous of your huma huma trigger. Mine's a reef tank, but if I ever did go with a FOWLR it would be to get a huma huma, I love them. |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 10 2010 at 3:32pm
| I would have thought someone would comment on the heavy impact livestock in conjunction with the relative "youth" of the tank... The absence of coraline sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Is there a "good" biologic filtration working in a new tank like that that doesn't have the critters? Maybe it's just me? |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 10 2010 at 5:11pm
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I agree with that. Though fish can do "okay" in a less mature tank, giving the biofiltration a chance to really stabilize is better for everyone. In my book, bio-stability takes at least 6 months. I'm not talking about the N cycle. There are unseen things at work in a reef tank that take time to stabilize. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 10 2010 at 5:37pm
| I would still like to know what the salinity was that the aquarium store kept the fish at. You can lower the salinity fairly quickly, but you have to raise it very slow. If it was in a hyposalinity tank it will take a week to get it ready for your normal tank. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 10 2010 at 11:07pm
I too hope that Kyle will come back and finish this with us. It not only helps him but it helps us all learn from his experience. It kind of bugs me when we don't know whether our discussion was helpful or if the hobbyist chose to live with the problem. I worry that sometimes people don't come back because our suggestions didn't work and they thought that was all we had to offer. It happens a lot with algae control.  If they would just stick with it and let us know what effect our suggestions had, we can always help them step up to the next level, a more aggressive treatment.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 14 2010 at 6:26pm
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Sorry for delayed response. internet has been down.
i just tested my tap water, and shows 10ppm nitrates..
so i will be looking for RO unit asap, and hopefully i can get nitrates under control.
still havn't had time to go get water tested.
I did test bird worlds water salinity with refractometer, came up with 1.010
Well the tank how now been set up for 6months. what should the limit of fish be for my tank?
And how will coraline sticks help?
the only filtertration i have is 2 socks for each dump pipe..
i would like to have had a sump. but with the plumbing and limited space i have, i don't think it would be possible.
if there is anyway you could bring some that would be greatly appreciated and thanks! triggers are the reason i joined the salty side.------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 14 2010 at 7:31pm
Well that is a big big problem. Fish can handle going down in salinity fairly quickly, but to raise it from that low to a normal marine level will take a week or more. The suggested rate is 0.003per day.
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 14 2010 at 10:43pm
I didn't mean "coraline sticks"  . I just have my tank as a reference over time, but I can say that coraline starts covering anything I add to my tank in very short order. It didn't used to do it so quickly. Coraline is part of the filtration.
The other thing is, with a FOWLR tank, you lack a lot of the critters that are part of the filtration process. They eat excess food, break down waste etc. I was suggesting that with the lack of these things (immature bio-filter, lack of cleanup crew) that you were likely going too fast by adding such high-impact fish (biologically speaking) so fast/soon.
After a year and a half of being a reefer and the time spent beforehand researching, I still consider myself a Noob. My comments were more to spark additional dialogue from the seasoned veterens here than to claim I had answers.
I think the suggestions here sound great. More LS and LR will increase the bio-load your tank can handle. Same for macro algae. If you can add critters in your refugium that's good too.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 14 2010 at 10:54pm
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Has anyone else ever tested Bird Worlds fish system? 1.010 seems awful low to me. It doesn't make sense for them to keep it that low because of the problem of acclimating fish back up to 1.022-25 where most of us keep our tanks these days. Hard to say regarding the fish limit. There are many variables involved. My opinion, looking at the pic, is that without making the changes we have suggested, I would hope that you don't try to kill another Clown Trigger. It's not "Coralline Sticks". What he said was that there isn't much Coralline Algae on the rock and that concerns him. "socks for each dump pipe" That is not the real filtration of a marine aquarium. More than 85% of the filtration is done by the life in the LS, LR, LW and Algae. Our suggestions are meant to improve that filtration because there is great room for improvement. You have a sump. I don't understand why you say that you don't. If you meant that you don't have space for a Refugium, that is also not so. There is a perfect spot for Algae to grow. It just needs a the cheap Home Depot light that we all use. That's a Refugium. We can help you keep Clown Triggers, if you are willing to follow our suggestions. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 15 2010 at 1:41am
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i was told not to get any CUC because the triggers would eat them..
I think i'm not growing any coralline algae because i just have a standard light that?
also, i meant to say that i would have liked to have a protein skimmer in my sump..
where can i buy some algae? ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 15 2010 at 6:22pm
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i was told not to get any CUC because the triggers would eat them.. They may eat Hermits but Snails have a better chance of surviving. It's easy to add a few and see how they do. A well fed Trigger is less likely to snack on those little reef janitors. I think i'm not growing any coralline algae because i just have a standard light that? Not true. I have grown lots of Coralline algae and have seen Coralline growing very well in tanks with ordinary fluorescent bulbs. The "Aquarium/Plant Grow" bulbs available at hardware stores works the best and it makes fish and everything more colorful too.
When you think of something for your aquarium or when you read or hear something from a hobbyist or LFS, come here and ask us. We will give you the straight
and truthful answer. The combination of experience of all the hobbyists on this MB knows almost all the answers. also, i meant to say that i would have liked to have a protein skimmer in my sump.. You can have both and enjoy all the benefits. There is plenty of room for a Refugium and a Skimmer in that sump. Where can I buy some algae? In this club there is no need to buy algae. Lot's of hobbyists not far from you are (or should be) harvesting macroalgae from their Refugiums every month or two. You can get a free handful or more almost anytime. All you have to do is ask with a post here on the MB ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 17 2010 at 3:00am
good deal. thanks for the help
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Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 17 2010 at 8:23am
| If I were you I would talk to bird world, and ask them if they really have there tanks at 1.010. If they do ask what there protocol to acclimate them to 1.025 is. It should take a week or so... Then I would ask them to do it for you. The good thing about them doing that is you will not have to worry about any ich..... the bad thing is that if you take them up too quick they will die. If they won't, then you can do it yourself, or get your fish some place else. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 17 2010 at 10:59am
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Two days ago, I called Bird World specifically about this. I spoke with Dan. He's been there a long, long time. I don't know why, but it really shocked me that he did not know the salinity of the fish system and was only mildly annoyed that it would be as low as 1.010. I asked if he could check it while I was on the phone. He had no way to check it unless he opened a new Hydrometer. He made the excuse that Doug (owner) keeps the Refractometer locked up in his office. Doug had just left so I needed to call back when he is there. Needless to say, this left a bad taste in my mouth and I have not called back. My dear fellow hobbyists, This is why we must know what we are doing and not accept the word of the LFS. There are exceptions, but to most of them it's just a job. To us it's our beloved pets and we must take control of their comfort. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 17 2010 at 11:18am
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Can someone follow up with this? If they have their salinity in that range - I think it's VERY important for us to know about it. I won't knowingly buy a fish that requires a week to acclimate to my tank or else it will die.
 I like Bird World, but I won't even browse the SW there if that's the case. Why look at something you won't buy when you can look at it somewhere else AND buy it. |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 2:37am
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i have checked the salinity with both hydrometer, and my refractometer. came up with 1.010
i have purchased all my fish through them. the death of my triggers were probably due to another matter, but the salinity change did not help i'm sure.
different issue with birdworld that is kind of relative. i noticed they have Emperor Scorpions with sand for bedding. this type of scorpion comes from a humid climate, and requires
80%humidity. sand betting sucks up any humidity there is.
A proper bedding would be bark, and moss that is misted several times a day.
I mentioned that to them, and they said they would let the manager know. this was about a year ago, and they still use sand. which causes respitory infections, and a slow death.
really irratates me.. ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Bluespotjawfish
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 8:13am
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If they are keeping it at 1.010 I believe it is because that have had ich introduced to the system already. Unless there have been no new introductions for several weeks, and the fish has been there for several weeks as well the fish may still have it, just not show signs of it. I agree that they should tell you so you can slowly acclimate the fish over several days. I haven't been to Bird World in ions, but when I did shop there, they used copper in their fish systems, not hyposalinity. They kept the fish system on the low end of normal (like 1.018-1.021) to reduce stress.
Research more about the step by step process of hyposalinity treatments for ich.
And, if you are only topping off once a week, you have a large swing in your salinity. It is better to top off more frequently so your salinity is more stable. ------------- Home of the baby Picasso! |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 8:47am
That is more than likely the cause of the death. Maybe the just started doing that or something, but taking them from 1.010 to 1.025 in a matter of hours is likely to kill the fish.
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Posted By: PhotoGlen
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 10:14am
I live in Tooele but if you are willing to drive here I have a bunch of Chaeto with a ton of life you can have for free. Just pm me. ------------- I honestly think it is better to be a failure at something you love than to be a success at something you hate. George Burns Now two 29 gal. Biocubes 90 gal. with a 40 gal. sump |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 12:53pm
------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 2:20pm
| That's a change in water volume of 3%. I would bet that's not a big deal. If you notice problems, then it may be time to reconsider. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 20 2010 at 7:40am
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Like has been mentioned already, quickly decreasing salinity is something that seems to be lessof a problem than quickly increasing salinity. Have you made any of our suggested changes to the tank yet  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: SumpCrab
Date Posted: December 21 2010 at 8:47pm
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First off, I am appalled at bird world. I am not sure if this would kill the fish but it certainly did not get them off to a good start and no one mentioned it to me when I bought fish there recently. huh Bird World? Second, I can't believe no one has discussed feeding! Triggers eat constantly in the wild much like tangs. They need to be fed at least 3 times per day and I am astonished at how much my 2" picasso can eat. In fact I have never seen a SW fish eat this much before. Which also brings up the fact that you don't have enough filtration on that tank to support the amount of nutrients these things generate. To get them calories in a compact form (my trigger loves this stuff) try small sinking pellets by Ocean Nutrition.
Third, nothing was mentioned about the difficulty in keeping small specimens of the clown trigger fish.
And a 6 month old tank with dead rock, no skimmer and no macro algea is akin to a 2 week old tank set up with one or more of the above.
Notice also that the OP decides to run out and spend his $150 on a RO unit which really wont do a thing at this point except allow him to justify his rationalization that some how his tap water and not his skill level are to blame (my trigger is fat and happy in a tap water fed tank with nitrates at 40ppm). Here is some advice. Spend 100 on live rock and 50 on better lighting (a few home depot 6500K FL daylight bulbs is a start). The rest of the things you need are free, time for the tank to mature, macro algea from someone here and time to start reading about what the hell you are doing before you kill anymore fish.
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Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 21 2010 at 10:13pm
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You bring up two things that I discussed - just a little more bluntly than I was.
I commented on the immaturity of the tank based on the pictures in combination with it's inability to handle the bio-load of fish like Triggers. I too suggested more LS and LR and time.
I think that Mark's latest comment is the most meaningful... "Have you made any of our suggested changes to the tank yet?" I'm in the same place as Mark, wanting to see the rubber hit the road with things that CAN be done instead of doing irrelevent and expensive things (RO) or just wasting time discussing the salinity at Bird World and trying to figure out if we can blame someone else for the dead fish.
I want to see some progress so he can successfully keep the fish he wants to keep in a month or two. I think we all want to see success.
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Posted By: SumpCrab
Date Posted: December 21 2010 at 10:31pm
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"was told wild caught clown triggers, are very hard to keep healthy. not that i'm aware if mine were wild or tank raised"...
They are all wild caught
Second your tank temp is way too cold. Your tank should be in the low 80's
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 8:04am
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low 80's ? I see pros and cons to that. What do you see?
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 9:08am
| If 76 and 78 both work, then 76 is going to save a lot of money over time... |
Posted By: Jeremyw
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 9:26am
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They are all wild caught this is false. Sorry to tell you but they are not all wild. Some are tank reared. Did you go to MWRF? Go take a visit to Reef Runners or Fish 4 U. They have tank raised/reared ones in the stores. ------------- Next meeting: |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 9:57am
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Taken from http://www.carolinafishtalk.com - www.carolinafishtalk.com -
Okay I see some confusion on the forums at times in ref to the difference between tank raised and tank bred. Even I fall victim to it at times. I have even seen stores charge more for a tank raised fish, dunno if they are hoping the customer will assume they mean tank bred or what.
Wild Caught(WC)- Fish, usually adults, that are caught in the wild and sent to distrubution centers to be sold to your LFS. Tank Bred(TB)/Captive Bred (CB)- Fish that are from a breeding pair, either WC,TR, or TB. These fish live their entire lives in captivity. These fish are bred in captivity so they have NEVER been in the open ocean (Critterheaven) Tank Raised(TR)- Fish, usually juveniles, are orignally WC and then kept in captivity until they are selling size or until cleared of all parasites, dieases, bacteral infections. - - - - -
I am sure that the stores want us to believe that Tank Raised means Captive Bred, but the reality is that Wild Caught and Tank Raised are BOTH taken from the ocean.
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Posted By: Jeremyw
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 10:21am
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Sorry if you thought I was confused im not they are tank raised/reared. caught as fry and then raised for year-years in a tank. ------------- Next meeting: |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 24 2010 at 5:53pm
i have 200lbs in the main tank. how much do i need??
also someone sayed i had 200lbs of dead rock? why you say that??
went to fs to have water tested.
here's the results..
ammonia 0
nitrites .1
nitrates 20
alk 27
calcium 500
fish guy said it's a huge suggestion to get RO especially for fish FO. and that it will reduce the trates and alk.
------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 24 2010 at 5:58pm
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will this RO unit be good enough?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390273945638 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390273945638 ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Josh95
Date Posted: December 24 2010 at 6:36pm
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Posted By: SumpCrab
Date Posted: December 24 2010 at 9:42pm
| "fish guy" is trying to sell you a RO unit (and everything else under the sun until your problem goes away or you become bankrupt). This is hopeless -- best of luck to you. |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: December 24 2010 at 11:38pm
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RO water will help bring your Alk down by not adding any more from the tap. That seems like spitting into a 5 gallon bucket hoping to fill it up.
You have big problems in that you have "200 lbs" of LR and it can't support what you currently have. You need time and better/more flow to help get that LR going. Your LR looks like a brick wall. If it's riddled with gaps and openings, then you probably need more flow to utilize them. How many times an hour are you turning over your tank water? (Add powerhead and pump ratings up using GPH and divide that by your tank's gallons)
As for that scarey Alk of 27, I'm going to watch with interest to see how you can bring that down without having coral in there to use it. With those numbers there are probably more people here surprised your fish are alive than there are that they are dieing.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 25 2010 at 9:55am
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27 is probably not the correct number. I'll bet it's 2.7 meq/l but we need Herrera to verify that. Normal range is generally 3.0-5.0 mil equivalent/liter, so it's slightly low. Herrera does not need to spend more than $1 to fix this whole problem. It boils down to having the right understanding and making some simple changes to the tank. It would sure help if Herrera would call me. A 10 minute conversation could settle a lot of this and make it possible to keep a Clown Trigger. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 25 2010 at 9:25pm
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i'm quite sure he said alk was 27.
iv'e talked to this guy alot in the past. he's a good guy. he told me an RO unit should solve the alk, and nitrate which is the only problem the tank is seeing. he even told me buy from ebay.. so he was not trying to sell anything..
my pump turns 1225 gph
x2 koriala 3&4 ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: December 25 2010 at 9:26pm
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Mark pm your number, and time you are available to talk. thanks ------------- 125g Aggressive tank SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer 40g Sump ------------------------------ 16g Innovative Marine Reef AI led 75W |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: December 26 2010 at 1:53am
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Your tank should be able to handle any added nitrate from tap water, and if your alk is that high, an RO unit will not fix it... Marks number is on the bottom of his post (in his signature). He is a great guy, and knows a lot about this stuff.
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Posted By: Connie
Date Posted: December 26 2010 at 8:36am
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I have never bought a fish from Bird World that lived. Yet I have never had one from Aquatic or The Aquarium that didn't. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of what Bird World keeps their SG at? ------------- I have flying monkeys and I'm not afraid to use them. 180 gallon money pit that I love..... |
Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 5:23pm
| by the way that alk is DKH |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 7:38pm
I've had a few fish from Birdworld I bought the last one a year ago and I still have them all today, whereas I can't say the same for the aquarium. I don't think fish losses can be chalked up to a single LFS, I believe that 90% of livestock mortality in this hobby is caused by the hobbyist. That's why reef clubs are so important in helping educate hobbyists in how to better care for livestock. I know when I first started in aquariums I burned through my share of fish, now I have what I consider to be a great track record with my purchases. To answer your question about dKh it means degrees of carbonate hardness (it's a measure of alk) ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 10:38pm
| 27 DkH isn't that about 3 times too much? |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: January 03 2011 at 11:19pm
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Yup ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 7:40am
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Hererra, are you there? You really need to call. We could clear up a lot of things in an instant if you would.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: herrera
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 9:43pm
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Hello all, I talked to Mark, and he insisted i double check what my Alk, and Calcium levels are at.. my little card kit does not have a calcium tester, and the Alk card only reads from 2.7-3.2 and the color is darker than the card shows.
So if anyone has a alk kit, and wouldn't mind testing my water, i would highly appretiate it, i can come to you if you live somewhat close, (roy to bountiful)
Also need some micro algea, if anyone has some to get rid of.
And despite what is wrong with my tank, what would be better purchase? RO unit or Protein Skimmer?
Bird world has a Turbo Floater 1000 (up tp 250g) Protein skimmer on sale for $150..
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Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 10:31pm
| Dude aquatic dreams in layton will test your water for free. They also sale RO water for 25 cents a gallon. So you could use that until you get a RO unit |
Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: January 14 2011 at 10:43pm
| I have no experience with protien skimmers, having never run one, but I would recommend using http://www.bulkreefsupply.com - www.bulkreefsupply.com for the RO unit. I got a pretty nice one for Christmas, clearly more than the entry level, but their suff is top notch. I love the online videos that show step by step install instructions for all their equipment. We really like drinking RO water too, so I have it plumbed to a side faucet on the sink as well as through my fridge & ice maker. |
Posted By: jmw
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 12:14am
| You stated earlier that you alk was 27dkh. I personally think the "better purchase" would be a salifert alk and a salifert cal test kit. Get those in range and your fish will live. |