Seahorse Mama Drama!
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Specialized Discussion
Forum Name: Fish
Forum Description: This is the place to ask questions about fish.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4142
Printed Date: October 19 2025 at 8:31pm
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Topic: Seahorse Mama Drama!
Posted By: Suzy
Subject: Seahorse Mama Drama!
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 9:20am
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Hi, guys! Some of you might know I've been blessed with a few
pairs of breeding seahorses. When I had my first batch, I started planning my retirement! Alas, it turns out that my breed is the hardest to breed, according to Tracy Travid from syngnathid. org. (She's the Goddess of SH breeding!) Not the actually breeding part. These guys are just like rabbits! It's raising the babies that is hard... Thus far, my best is gettting 4 of them to 7 weeks, to the hitching stage!! Then I can't figure out why, one day they are hitching and eating and then the next day they die off one by one! So, I've been researching RC and the 2 SH sites, trying to find the magic secret! So, I'm looking one day last week, and I thought "Why am I looking elsewhere when the WMAS has the smartest people on this planet!" I don't think anybody has any experience with this particular breed of fish, but you guys are the brain storming kings! Can you help me with a group brainstorming? Anybody have any thoughts? Why they just die? |
Replies:
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 1:09pm
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Suzy, What species do you have? What type of rearing tank are you using? What types of food are you feeding? Have you tried adding a few directly to a Green Water, Rotifer, BBS, culture? How are your dwarfs doing? ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 1:31pm
Why not strike out on your own and get away from the sterile conditions that many newbies endorse. You've told me that you know more about it than 99% of the people at seahorse.org After all, it wasn't until hobbyists let their tanks grow more life that they began to grow more coral. Your fishbowls are so small and certainly lack filtration. Have you contacted Rodney B. to learn how he solved the problem of water filtration for all those baby Percula. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Jake Pehrson wrote:Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 2:58pm
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Thanks, Guys! I knew I could count on you!
I'm still not sure about the species! They are either H. kuda or H. reidi, both have pelagic fry. I posted pics on the 2 seahorse sites, but got different answers from the people that seem that most knowledgeable! Here's what Travid said on her site: Hippocampus taeniopterus sometimes called the common seahorse, adults can grow to approximately 22cms - fry are born very small approx 5mm and are considered pelagic and not easy to raise. But they are a stunning looking horse. Sweet, huh? I have tried like 10 different nursery set ups. But, I only started designing them after I looked at other peoples ideas. I was hoping you guys could come up with a design, since your brains haven't been tainted! So, imagine this little tiny seahorse fry, about the half the size of a brine shrimp! They only eat live food, which pollutes the water. They are pelagic, which means they just float through the water, eating whatever small enough thing cruises by their snout! There needs to be some force that encourages them to not just float to the surface, where they can't get food. Any ideas? I'll answer your questions after you guys come up with some nursery plans, OK? I don't want to tell what I've already tried, 'cause I want to see if anything new turns up, and if I tell the ones I've already done, you will be thinking about them! And, then I want to discuss the nutrition part... |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:06pm
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Nursery plans: Dump a few (20-30) seahorses in a 10-15 gallon container (those pre-filled filtered water containers placed upside down work well) that has good water flow from air tube(s) (without stones) and place a lot of greenwater, rotifers, and bbs. Make sure to keep the green water, rotifer, and bbs population high (this is the key IMO). Any pollutants put out by the seahorses should be used up by the greenwater (see Marks tank for an example). -You shouldn't need any hitching stations for at least the first week or two (maybe more) if they are truly pelagic when they are born, depends on how fast they grow. -Make sure there are NO stagnant areas or your seahorses will gather there and most likely starve. -Make sure the water is green. If you can't keep the water green then you will most likely fail IMO. -Make sure the rotifer population stays high. -You will need to constantly add BBS. Although it may be better for water quality to hatch them out side the Seahorse enclosure, I used to add the decapsulated BS eggs directly to the nursery. That way the foals can get to them as soon as they hatch. BS grow quickly. Waiting a couple of hours after they hatch to feed them to your foals may be too long, especially if your horses are born small. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:33pm
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Wow!
Do you mean one of the blue water jugs? Like they use in business offices? From Culligan? You're right about the hitching stations. They don't hitch 'till about 3 weeks, then they could just be in a regular tank. Maybe! I'm going to do an expirement on the next batch, with one batch getting Rots & BBS, they other just bbs. I'm not sure they even eat the rots! I have to hatch the BBS for my other guys, anyway. So, you think 20-30 fry: 10-15 gallons is a good ratio? 2 per gallonish? Any other ideas? Nursery wise? I am going to try this one, but I'm game for anything! |
Posted By: lex0219
Date Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:40pm
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she also has dwarfs and thanks to her so do i suzy u rock ------------- "I will search until i find my happily ever after"-renee tanks 10 gal dwarf 30 gal fw 10 gal nano reef 12 gal nano cub The Air Force is where it is! |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 7:58am
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Mark, AKA Mr Natural Biodiversity-is-my-homeboy-all-knowing-
of-aquatic-lifeforms guy! The nursery has to keep the little things from floating to the top, a little different than anemone fish fry. I have read Wilkersons book about clownfish, more than once actually! I think some things about the fry are similar, but the success rates vary significantly. Jake, I've been thinking about your design. Do you mean taking a bottle neck type bottle and inverting it? Or just any container? Adam, where are you? Mr Fry Nursery Inventor? I need you! Bad! Can you bring your pic over here so we can discuss it's application to my babies? Jason, did you leave me? In my time of need? I hope you're not mad at me....'cause I think you're cute! And sweet! And I'm not just saying that 'cause your middle name is Mr Breeder! Where are the rest of WMAS smarty pants inventors? I know you're not not posting because you're shy! Maybe you think your ideas will seem silly after Jake's cool idea? Maybe, too simple? Maybe, too elaborate? Don't think that! I'm hoping to crack this mystery! And, maybe a combo of a lot of ideas will work! So, I've fooled my equines into thinking that it is winter, but I put a heater back into the tank last week, and the temp is up to 74`. Today I'm going to start making the sun stay up a little bit longer. I've got some pretty healthy adults right now! One of the females dropped some eggs yesterday, so I think she is ready! (Yummy hermit snack!) When I get babies, there should be plenty to "experiment" with, so I'm hoping for a few different designs to play with. Come on, guys (and chickolas!)! I need you!! |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 9:25am
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Yes.
Well, any container will do, but you need to make sure the water is in constant motion. Through the entire containter not just on the surface. This is extremly difficult to do with a rectangle aquarium. That it why I recommend the "Culligan water bottle". Oh and yes I invert them. Just like a big green water culture (i.e. replace the 2 liter with the "Culligan water bottle".
Yes and no. Eventually you can increase those numbers as you become more comfortable with the method and are able to provide them with lots of live foods. I think it is easier to start out with only about 20-30, maybe a few more. Eventually you can be easily rasing 100+ babies per 10-15 gallon container. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 9:58am
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So, cut the top of the bottle off, wait bottom of the bottle, turn it
over and find some plywood frame to keep it upright? Place a stiff acrylic tube to the bottom of the neck with a slight bubble flow to keep 'em from cruising to the bottom (Bottom is not a big issue with these guys! They want to go to the top!).?? Maybe add a few more bubblers to the sides? To increase the surface agitation? |
Posted By: Crazy Tarzan
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 10:36am
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Hey suzy, what if you had an inverted cone made out of acrylic? Sort like an A
then you could have the filtration dump back in at the top, and if you
put a concave bottom on it so you didn't have any dead spots--oh and
you could have small holes drilled in the bottom edge with nozzles to
create a soft circula, or random current to help with dead spots, say 5
or 6 small nozzles pointed slightly different directions on the bottom
of the A, above the concave bottom (so it would look kinda like an
upside down icecream cone--waffle cone style with part of the cone cut
off).
------------- Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ? Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing |
Posted By: Firefish
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 12:46pm
| You may have to work with the light placement. If the seahorses hang out mostly at the top put a light at the top to keep the food there. If they mostly hang out at the bottom put the light at the bottom. Work with darkening the container so that there is only one source of light. |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: October 28 2004 at 12:59pm
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Yes, with the exception of the side bubblers. I would stick to bubbles coming from the bottom (previous top). This creates great circular water movement. Side bubbles would just add chaos IMO and are not necessary. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 29 2004 at 8:32am
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Wow! Great ideas!!!
Jake, this is going to sound so terrible, but I have spent so much money on this fruitless endeavor, I don't want to spent anymore than I have to for an exprriment! Those jugs cost $15 bucks at our local storee. Do you think I could use a 1 gallon bottle, duct tape it to the wall of my fry table? As long as I used the same density ratio? Would the phyto make less water changes possible? Or no water changes? I can totally remove the fry and do a water change with a new jug. ...If it has better results, I'll buy 12 big 10 galllon jugs! CT, would this waffle cone be inside another tank? The power heads in the outer part? The filtered water would come from a HOB filter thing? I actually have an acrylic waffle cone! Its a BSD BBS hatcher! Would fit wonderfully inside this empty 10 gallon tank I have! Jeff, I did a tank with the entire tank blackened except for the bottom 3 inches. I don't know if it uses too much energy to stay down there, or what but it didn't seem to work. That was like only the third or fourth attempt, though. I should try it again. I have an empty 5 gallon tank. Do you think I should be bare bottom or try some biological filtration DSB wise? Thanks for all the ideas, guys! I know there's more out there, though! Come on inventors! Temp 76`, daylight up to 11 hours. Mr Big is getting frisky, but Snickers dropped her eggs recently, so I MIGHT have about 2 weeks... Smarty Jones and Seabiscuit look a little tired, though.... |
Posted By: Crazy Tarzan
Date Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:06am
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Suzy, I suppose it could be, the thought I had was there is less
surface area or top to the tank with this design, and the
powerhead/nozzle arrangement is just to give some current to the water
inside. Is your waffle cone actually solid sides? I would
figure someway to filter and create current and also have it
supported. I suppose the only question is how many fry can you
put in your current bbs hatcher and not have any problems.
------------- Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ? Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:10am
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Jake, this is going to sound so terrible, but I have spent so I do understand your concerns with the cost. IMO it is almost impossible to be profitable rasing seahorses (at least it was for me). Do you think I could use a 1 gallon I wouldn't but you could always try it out. Maybe someone has one laying around they could give you. It doesn't hurt to ask. Would the phyto make less water Yes, the phyto helps filter the water. If you keep the phyto population high I think you can go with few waterchanges. I can totally remove the fry and do a water change with a new jug. I would not recommend moving the fry to do water changes. To much stress IMO. If a water change is necessary I would replace a small amount of water every couple of hours, so you don't stress the horses. If it has better results, I'll buy 12 big 10 galllon jugs! I don't think you will have good results with the smaller jugs, but hey if they are free don't hesitate to try it out. But don't write off my suggested method if you do not follow it exactly. The other method that work well is using a 10 gallon tank with an undergravel filter. Keep the rots, bbs, and horses in a soupy greenwater mixture. If use this method you should be able to go 7-14 days without a water change. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:36am
Suzy, I believe that if you work exclusively with Jake, following his directions to the "T" and kinda ignore all those "think they know it all's" (like me  ) on the MB's you will have success.
But you need to stay focused and follow pretty much exactly what he says. If you get sidetracked and stop following his advice, you might stumble, and fail to reach your goal. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 29 2004 at 2:30pm
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Ct, I'm thinking your idea is a right side up A! or V...Are you
thinking upside down A? The BBS hatcher I have would only hold a few fry, using the 4fry/1 gallon ratio. It does have acrylic construction, so I could easily drill holes in it..What if I put a bubbler in it? Or are you thinking something even bigger? Something i would need an acrylic expert (Jon) to build? Jon, I totallly have given up on making any mooola at this point. I just want to have 1 live to replace Mr Big! (Not Rob!)! He's getting old....(Again, NOT Rob....ok, Rob is getting old....But NOT replacable!). Does anybody have a big honkin Culliagan water jug I could trade for some 'shrooms? You think using a smaller version would affect the results? Even if I stayed at the same fry:gallon ratio? I tried the undergravel filter a few times. The little guys just want to float. I was thinking about using that for filtration, or a dsb, with some sort of spray bar at the top.... Mark, I need out side the box know it all thinkers! I mean you! I'm still waiting for your nursery design!! |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: October 30 2004 at 3:53pm
| I don't know why I was thinking some body would come up something with some sort of natural, biological, not so sterile, sorta thing? |
Posted By: smatney
Date Posted: October 30 2004 at 4:31pm
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Couple of sites: http://www.syngnathid.org/articles/raisingFry.html - http://www.syngnathid.org/articles/raisingFry.html http://www.lostmymarblz.com/hh-ms-5-5gal-erectus-procerusfry.htm - http://www.lostmymarblz.com/hh-ms-5-5gal-erectus-procerusfry .htm It also looks like you've had some of the same discussions with the seahorse breeders online. I can't think of anyone around who knows more about this than you. I know that you would love to go past two months with babies.
------------- Susan Matney Farmington, UT |
Posted By: Crazy Tarzan
Date Posted: October 30 2004 at 4:48pm
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Suzy, I'm thinking an A-- that has been cut off, with the bottom wider than the top. This is to reduce the surface area at the top. You would still need some filtration and water movement to help with gas exchange, but if you say that the fry tend to move toward the top, if you had less surface area wouldn't it concentrate, or make it easier to get to, the food for the fry at the top since there would be less volume and area for the food to be in? Just my $.02 for you. ------------- Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ? Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 7:27am
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Thanks, Guys!
Susan, I have actually tried those plans! I think they would work better for benthic fry, seahorses that go to the bottom and hitch. Jake, I was thinking about your design and I went back to look at your first post, and i realized I was going to use my blue jug, but it is only 5 gallons! Is there a 10 gallon? Where? Ct, I got to think more about your design! I think if there isn't some force to "encourage" these little guys down, they will all just go to the top en masse and get all tangled up (I've actually had that happen, not in your design, but in a regular tank with a bubbler only on one side. They all went to the other side and just hung out in a fry glob!). Some of the others I've tried: The Walmart plastic fishbowl staple! You can get these plastic round fishbowls that can be modified to allow water in & out. I tried the designs on the seahorse sites. One design involved putting 4 of them in a 10 gallon tank, on a pvc table. Airline placed on the side of each bowl to encourage the fry to "kriesal". A HOB filter on the side with small lines to each bowl to get fresh water to each bowl, and each bowl had quarter sized holes (covered with mesh) in it to allow the water out. This design got the seahorses to the hitching stage. It was very time consuming and hard to keep each bowl clean. I tried putting a bowl in my sump! I put a little line from the tank, down to the bowl placed on the side to keep the fry moving, had a cut to let the water out.. The fry perished quickly in this design! I tried to feed them every few hours, but the food wouldn't stay in the bowl long. I tried lifting the bowl out of the water for 20 minutes for them to feed. This is when I kinda started thinking water quality is not the issue, it's nutrition! I put one plastic bowl in a 10 gallon tank, with chaeto and sand in the outer part. That one really sucked to clean! Best results so far: A plain old 2 gallon glass fish bowl. Airlines on the side, held with simple suction cups. 25 watt heater. I have 2 that I am going to keep using for my experimental tanks! |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 11:14am
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I think the ideal design would include a large, well-established tank with a micromesh divider sectioning off a corner with nothing in it but water. Perhaps a 40 micron mesh which would allow the transfer of phytoplankton and water, but not allow the fry or rotifers to pass. Then you could have a phytoplankton drip which would keep a constant supply of phytoplankton.
------------- 
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Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 11:24am
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That's kinda what I've been toying with! With maybe some kind
of spray bar to keep the little guys from hanging out at the surface. But, I hadn't considered sectioning it off. The fry would live in the sectioned off part? Would that be so I could have an area where I could siphon off the fry poop? |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 12:44pm
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The fry would live in the sectioned off side. This setup would allow you to have a large water volume and be able to use filtration devices. Water quality wouldn't be a problem since the established tank could easily handle the extra bioload. The water chemistry would also remain fairly constant. -------------
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Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 4:03pm
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But why seperate them? Are you thinking putting some HOB
mechanical filter? |
Posted By: Adam Haycock
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 4:23pm
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It allows you to have a skimmer, overflow, live rock, sump, refugium or whatever else you want without any danger of harming the fry. It also allows you to add less live food (rotifers etc.) since they cant pass the divider. The result is clean, stable water
-------------
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Posted By: SSpargur
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 4:28pm
Suzy - Adam's idea sounds like an excellent one! Definitely worth trying.  ------------- Sean Spargur West Valley, UT |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 01 2004 at 6:05pm
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Wow! I'm impressed. I want to try to set up something to this
effect through my main system! |
Posted By: MPsWife
Date Posted: November 19 2004 at 1:14am
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haven't talked to you in a while suzy, just wanted to see how your horses were doing. :) Looks like I may be making a trip down to SLC sometime in Dec. to see my relatives so maybe I'll get the chance to come see your horses! ------------- Something this expensive and addictive should be illegal. I'm just waiting for the fish police to burst in and confiscate my skimmer. |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 19 2004 at 7:13am
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Hi, Northern Neighbor! I got sorta distracted since I started this
thread! I have been trying to get my equines to eat frozen mysis, so I've only been feeding them ghost shrimp in the evening. Some are, some aren't. And, of course, it's the baby carriers who are holding out! So, Snickers is looking pretty healthy (female) and I expect her to be egg bound soon, so I'll start feeding both foods 3 times a day to fatten up the boys! But, I am still very doubtful about getting this breed to survive. But, you are welcome to try! And, Jason too! Give us a heads up before you come, and we'll cook up a personal reef tour for you! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 09 2005 at 10:23pm
| Does anyone know of any websites I can order live seahourses from? I am in the USA. |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 09 2005 at 11:02pm
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OK Suzy, In order to help with problem solving you should make three lists 1. Problems 2. Failed solutions 3. Fixed solutions This will allow us to get a whole picture view of what are the challanges, what has been tried, and what parts have worked. The farther you get with one solution, just roll that into another or modify it. I think there may be something more to the /\ idea. What if you expand that idea in this way: The /\ is inside another tank, the /\ has a false bottem (micromesh divider), you have a tube running up the center of the /\ and you pump water up the /\ (which flows back down the/\ hopefully pushing fry to the middle of the /\). The system could have live sand and live rock but should be small enough so that you could keep a high concentration of food (not possible in a large system). Hopefully this makes sense.  (asci art didn't work too well, so try this) You could modify this so that there is a bowl of some sort that would seperate the pump from the above /\ water and catch the waste products. Kind of like this. /|\ -|- Then you could syphon waste from the bowl and do less water maintenance. Just my stab at it. ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: November 10 2005 at 5:49am
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Guy, there are quite a few. I got mine new guys from Ocean Rider, they
are a bit pricey,though. Marine Depot has them usually. There are others. But, I have seen them in quite a few of our LFSs, saving you $$$$$ S&H, plus you can see them eat & swim upright before you pay! Jeff, thank you so much for the suggestions! I have a benthic breed now, though! This is really an old thread! But, we do have a few pelagic breeders out there, so they can really use this! |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 10 2005 at 10:26am
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Yah, I guess I better look at the year also  ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |