DIY - New SW Setup: Big Questions

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New SW Setup: Big Questions

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Forum Name: DIY
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28831
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Topic: New SW Setup: Big Questions

Posted By: vadryn
Subject: New SW Setup: Big Questions
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 10:56am

I've been in FW for over 3 years now and am seriously looking at getting a SW setup, but I have some major questions/concerns that I'd like some help with from experinced hobbiests.

1. I have a 225g Acrylic that is 72x24x31.

-A. Is this too big for a first SW tank?

-B. How can I keep an acrylic this big clean? It's already a PITA to scrub algae off the front because it's so deep and hard to reach, plus the acrylic severely limits the tools I can use. Should I be looking to switch to glass?

My intentions are to have a full Reef tank. I personally like SPS Coral and want to work towards having them successfully.

-C. I'm using a Mag 24 pump currently. Is that too much, just right or not enough for running a sump for SW?

-D. How much more circulation do I need? (Powerheads, Closed circuit...)

-E. Is there an article that simply spells out the water path for a SW sump & refugium? I understand the FW setup well. Where does the Calcium reactor go? Is it necessary? What about teh Protien skimmer? Is there other hardware to worry about I'm missing?

-F. I have a 30g tank and a similar sized rubbermaid as my sump currently. Do I "Need" a bigger sump setup? I'd like a bigger one, but 75g+ options are hard to find on a budget. Would it be realistic to hope to find a used 75/80g on the cheap?

-G. Is there a website, article or book that would help break SW down into simple groups of things that are compatible? I want to avoid unrealitic expectations (I like seahorses, SPS coral and Trigger fish, that'll work, right?)

-H. Do I need to budget in battery backup for some systems? If so, what "needs" to keep running. Will a simple UPS for stuff like computers work?

-I. I know already I can't afford large, regular water changes with SW. I can take inconsistent income to work on projects, but it'll kill me to be spending $50+ a month just to change the water. Do I throw in the towel right now?

-J. For those here with large tanks, do you run dehumidifiers in your house? Mine will be in a 12x18 basement room. Do I need a bathroom fan venting outside to keep heat and moisture under control?

Thanks in advance for your info and suggestions.

Replies:

Posted By: sukie
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 11:36am

That's a ton of questions!!!

Regarding the sump portion of the thread - check out melev's site, good resources on sumps!
http://www.melevsreef.com/links.html - http://www.melevsreef.com/links.html

But as far as size - awesome salt water starter tank!

Mag24 = great return pump. It might be too much or too little depending on your plumbing.

. . .

Tileman! Where you at??
http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=298 -
Tileman has has an 225gal acrylic tank. . he'll tell you how to keep it clean and scratches to a minimum.

Great book to check out it by Delbeek & Sprung - The Reef Aquarium Volume Three: Science, Art, and Technology

Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 11:50am

1. I have a 225g Acrylic that is 72x24x31.

-A. Is this too big for a first SW tank?

Nope, it is fine

I'd switch to glass. You won't regret it.

My intentions are to have a full Reef tank. I personally like SPS Coral and want to work towards having them successfully.

Lighting and filtration... only two words you need to know

-C. I'm using a Mag 24 pump currently. Is that too much, just right or not enough for running a sump for SW?

Great for a return, but you'll need some korallias or vortechs or something for water movement. I highly recommend seeing some other tanks.

-D. How much more circulation do I need? (Powerheads, Closed circuit...)

4 big stream pumps of some type????

Agree with Sukie, read the melevsreef.com site.

Bigger is much better, but I use a 30 gal rubbermaid on my 300. Get as big as you can, then make it work for you.

Ooooh, that is a big topic. Don't set up your tank yet. See some tanks, then tell us (maybe rank in order) what you want and people can help you make choices to get a tank that is designed for those animals. For instance... sps, seahorses, triggers.... I wouldn't plan to keep any of them together.

-H. Do I need to budget in battery backup for some systems? If so, what "needs" to keep running. Will a simple UPS for stuff like computers work?

No. The vast majority of hobbyists don't have anything like this. Good idea to have one, but certainly not a common item. A couple cheap battery powered air pumps will do the trick.

Ask someone else, because I'd say yes. And I don't want to discourage you. Most recent studies show aquariums running about $50 per gallon to get the tank fully established. Some people are way under this amount, but then again some are way over.

-J. For those here with large tanks, do you run dehumidifiers in your house? Mine will be in a 12x18 basement room. Do I need a bathroom fan venting outside to keep heat and moisture under control?

I have run dehumids and I've also gone without. For me, it has been dependent on how much light I had, and therefore how many fans I had on the tank. Some people don't use dehumids and do just fine. Other people can't open their front door all winter long because the door jam is swollen with moisture. Some people grow mold on their walls in their living rooms.... others don't even have mold growing in their shower. I guess it all depends on how much airflow you have in your house.

I hope that helps. A lot of questions hopefully others will chime in.

Final thought- please travel around and visit some other tanks in this club. That will help far more than any of the answers we can give here online. Find a tank you wish you had, and tell us what tank it is.

Adam

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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!

Posted By: fyrmn14
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 11:52am

I know there are alot more experienced people on these boards that can throw there hat in on this info, but I guess ill toss out what I know.

A. No, in SW bigger is better for beginners. There are many toxin levels to watch out for in SW and more water volume allows for a little error.

B. Glass is better, but can be costly. Not much to give you on cleaning acrylic, never had it.

C. Mag 24 should be fine. I have always heard to turn your tank water over roughly 10X every hour. With the Mag 24 doing 2400 should be good.

D. A 225 tank and especially if you are doing reef I would say 3-5 extra powerheads.

E. Sumps come in many different setups. your basic usually is 3 sections. First is your protein skimmer and drain tubes, second can be a refugium, third is your pump back to the tank. I would say protein skimmer is almost a necessity, but calcium reactor you can get away without having if you keep up on water changes.

F. The "sump" you have should be fine for now. I have seen 75's for cheap, just wait and watch. No need to rush.

G. http://www.fish.com/Fish.com%20-%20Saltwater%20Fish%20Compatibility%20Chart.pdf - http://www.fish.com/Fish.com%20-%20Saltwater%20Fish%20Compatibility%20Chart.pdf

There is a good pdf on compatibility.

H. Battery backup is only necessary if you are going to be away from the tank for days at a time. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. If you do want to get one I would have your return pump and maybe one powerhead on it.

I. Unfortunatly Yes. Standard is about 10% a week or 20% every other. Granted you can do less and be fine still, but your corals will love you with more.

J. I run a 150 in a basment room about that same size and no fan. Humidity hasn't been a problem.

Again my advice is only a year into the hobby and I know there are people out there that have been in it a lot longer that may trump my advice. Just thought I would get you started.

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This isn't a hobby...its a sport...they should put it in the olympics.

Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 2:33pm

For "Big Questions" you need a BIG Thread: (shameless plug coming )

http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24146&PN=1 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24146&PN=1

17 pages on how to set up and manage a 225g acrylic Reef tank

Covers pretty much all the questions you raised plus many other topics like sumps, skimmers, lighting, heating... to water prep and testing, sandbeds and aquascaping, water changes, cleaning the acrylic, feeding and care for fish and corals...

Plus it is all done "on a budget"...

P.S. - Don't ditch the acrylic tank... while I do agree with Adam that glass is "better" (easier to clean, harder to scratch) if you are truly "on a budget" then replacing the tank is a $400 - $500 expense that IMO you would be better off spending that money elsewhere...

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *

Posted By: jcaulley
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 2:54pm

A. Definately not too big as a starter tank. The most difficult tank I have ever tried to do was a 16G. The bigger they are, better room for error. Where you are going to get slammed with a big tank like that is the cost. I easily have $3500 tied up in equipment for my 125G.

B. I can't really help too much on how to keep the acrylic clean, but one huge plus to an acrylic tank is the ability to drill it. It's going to be a trade off, but if I had an acrylic tank in my hands, I would go for it and deal with the cleaning aspect as it comes. With a good setup (i.e. cleanup crew and some proper maintenance) you may find the cleaup to be rather easy.

C. The Mag 24 is probably a good pump to use for your return, I am pushing between 1100-1300gph through my 125.

D. I set up my first closed loop on my 125 and I will never go back. The biggest reason for someone not to do a CL is the pain of drilling the tank. If you use the acrylic tank, then IMHO there is absolutely no reason not to do a closed loop as opposed to littering the tank with powerheads. I run a Reeflo Dart pump on my CL, I would think a Reeflo Barracuda or Hammerhead would be perfect for a 225.

E. I definately agree with the previous posters that you need to reed up at melevsreef.

F. Again this is my personal opinion, but I like to use a sump that falls in the range of 1/3-1/2 the size of my tank. I am using a 55 aquarium as the sump for my 125. You should be able to find a used 75 for this purpose. Keep an eye out on this board, in the KSL classifieds and on the fresh water fish forums.

G. Dr's Foster & Smith has a general compatibility chart on their website. It's decent and a good starting point. Like said before, think and ask here before buying. As far as your seahorses, sps and triggers, I don't think you could find anything less compatible :-(

H. Worst part of a power outage is stagnant water. Unfortunately, a computer UPS will not power that Mag 24 for any real amount of time. A couple of battery operated air pumps should be enough to get you though any short power outages. If your concern is because you know that you have unreliable power, buy a generator.

I. I think $50/month is on the high side for water changes. I currently change about 20-25g/ month in my 125. Has been working great for me. A bucket of salt will set you back $50, but you should be able to get 3-4 water changes out of it. With a tank that large, if you do not already have one, an RO unit is a must. You will be dumping 3-7g of fresh water into the tank daily to account for evaporation.

J. No dehumidifier here.

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Jared Caulley
West Haven, UT
16g Bowfront, mostly LPS
125g in progress

Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 4:34pm

Defiantly see if you can stop by Carlso63's house and check out his tank. He has followed the inexpensive DIY rout religiously and with great success. I saw his tank on a reef tour we recently did and I was very impressed.

From one beginner to another, I learned very quickly that this hobby is expensive and will take quite a bit of an initial investment the first month but there are a ton of things you can do to make it much less. Another good link that helped me out to save some money is- http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244&KW=affordable - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244&KW=affordable

Good luck

Sculpin

Posted By: dukester48
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 9:20pm

I think you are a genius to be a newbie in SW and start out with these type of questions. One of the two tricks is to DO YOUR RESEARCH which you already obviously have. The second is to ask people on the board. I congratulate you on starting out right Clap

I wish I had done as much research..., it would have cost me a lot less money and less mistakes!

Ill leave the answers to the experts since I still feel like a newbie after all these years but I just wanted to let you know that you are on the right route!

Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 11:53pm

Hi guys, I'm over in Kailua right now, but if you would like to come over and pick my brain on my 225 acrylic tank I will be home on the 30th.

If i had the chance to go glass instead of acrylic, I would not hesitate.

Expense wise, I'm one that has gone way overboard.

PM me if you would like to come by

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335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month

&

Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 11:56pm

-------------
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month

&

Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 25 2008 at 12:14am

Can I come over? Embarrassed

Sculpin

Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: October 25 2008 at 3:11am

Sculpin wrote:

Can I come over? Embarrassed

Sculpin

Sure, but I wont be home untill the 30th.

-------------
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month

&

Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 10:12am

OK - More questions.

I've been out on some of the websites recommended and followed the exceptional thread following carlso63's tank setup.

In my FW tanks, I have to take stuff out to catch fish on a somewhat regular basis. It's no big deal to rearrange the rocks - in fact I think it's good for the cichlids. How permanent is the Live Rock setup? Is that something you jockey around and change on a regualr basis or do you set it up and let it go?

How do you catch fish? Or do you typically only have to catch the ones that have died? Or does the clean-up crew take care of that too?

Daily feeding is one thing. Do SW tanks require daily water testing and chemical adjustments like the carlso63 thread seemed to imply?

Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 1:00pm

I am lazy and don't do water changes much and have stopped testing lately also. I was initially testing once or twice a week while I was figuring out what my system needed. My setup still looks good but I'm guessing it could be better(although everything seems very happy and growing fast). I am lightly stocked on fish and I think that helps. I leave my rocks alone and hope that I never have to catch a fish.

Refugium with vegetable filtration and a deep sand bed is what works for me.

Posted By: kdinkel
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 4:15pm

Hey Vadryn (I am assuming your are the one from utahaquatics). I just did what you are doing in January. I would never go back to cichlids. I have had my issues certainly, but I love it. I am no pro, but here goes on your questions:

No you do not want to move your live rock. It isn't the rock that is the issue it is the corals on the rocks. If you bump SPS they tend to break, and if you get coral in a spot they seem happy it is nice to keep them there.

As for catching fish, it sucks! Don't put something in that you don't want to keep. You can use the same techiniques as fresh (catching them at night, baiting with food, fish traps, etc). When fish die you can remove them if you see them but most likely they will just disappear as your clean up crew will take care of them.

Water testing I did every day at first, but now I do it once a week or once every 2 weeks. It gets to the point that you can tell when something is off by looking at your tank.

As for setup, there is a quick, cheap way for live rock, sand, and water. I will see if I can find the post (my bad sculpin already posted it in his post. I mostly used this method and it worked well). Good luck!

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29 gallon reef

Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 5:20pm

In the beginning you should test your water frequently (maybe even once a day) as new setups can sometimes have fluctuating parameters as things settle in...

After a few weeks you certainly can scale that back. In my own 4.5 month old system, I test for alk twice a week (and dose if necessary), I test for Ca once a week (and dose if necessary) and that's basically it. I'll check pH, nitrates, phophates and salinity once a month just to be sure - and I only test for ammonia or nitrite if something looks "sick" or died...

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *

Posted By: vadryn
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 6:06pm

carlso63 - I couldn't see in your other thread how you seperated your sump and refugium. I could see the egg crate but surely that wouldn't keep the sand and plants from getting pulled into the pump in the chamber next to it. Can you elaborate?

Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 6:29pm

vadryn wrote:

carlso63 - I couldn't see in your other thread how you seperated your sump and refugium. I could see the egg crate but surely that wouldn't keep the sand and plants from getting pulled into the pump in the chamber next to it. Can you elaborate?

The eggcrate divider is covered with a piece of fiberglass window screening and it actually does keep the sand and macroalgaes out of the pump area.

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *

Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 12:38am

I should have said before-

Skimmers are great, but don't sacrifice refugium for a skimmer. It's best to get both and make them big.

I like the book by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner, Reef Invertebrates. It shows ways to make naturally happy conditions in a reef tank and gives info on the care for some fun critters. Also, this book, can inform you about some undesirables that you might want to avoid and remove from your tank.

Take all I say with a grain of salt, knowing that I've only been in the obsession for a year.

Posted By: mr_tongate
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:19pm

i think this hobby is defently worth a second job , my power bill allown went up 50 + a mo. not to mention food for all diff. kinds of stuff and repalicment parts for somthing that broke or replentishing crabs and snails , trust me im NOT tring to discurage you in any way i love this hobby as much as i love to race my camaro , but just think about not only water changes but all the other hidden cost .....but then agian im a nubie and ask a lot of questions my self when ever i have a pblm i turn to the board . I have only had my tank for a year ...... but ive put in about $5000.00 worth of stuff in it and the first 2000 everything died to much bio load at one time tank wasnt established enough to add all that stuff at once so over the last year ive added about 3000 more a little at a time .... and trust me 2000 in live creatures just gone hurt my feelings ALOT i almost gave it up ( before i even started ) but a buddy talked me into stick'n with it and now my 72g bow is so full im looking for a bigger system... but all of this is IMO . think of it like a boat its a hole in the water that you throw money in..... i dont know what your $$$ limit is some of us dont care what the cost if we've got it and we see somthing we like its going in . Big smile

just keep this in mind IMO....the more money you throw at your tank the more Smile

you will be

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220 reef
cell# 760.684.6122
POSTING PIC'S
http://zip-zero.com/wmas/imageUpload.php

Posted By: mr_tongate
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:23pm

oh and BTW on the fish catch-n i have 2 damsel's that have been in there from the start and i hate these fish but cant catch them and the little @$#$ killed a naso blnd tang $60 gone cause a $8 fish didnt like him Angry

... so becarful and do recerch b4 you stick somthing in...

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220 reef
cell# 760.684.6122
POSTING PIC'S
http://zip-zero.com/wmas/imageUpload.php

Posted By: golfer2002
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 1:45am

big fish has an 90 gal acrylic sump for 100.00 i was going to buy it but i had some people dog out on me but enyway i have a 210 and run 55 gal sump just take it slow andeverything will work out ive only been doing this for 8 months and i threw thousands into my tanks before they even cycled and both my tanks are doing great i take ideas from other members then put my own conclusions to work and its been doing fine but if you would like to trade tanks im up for that to OH I TRIED TO CALL YOU WHEN I CAME THROUGH WY THAT FOLLOWING WEEK TO GIVE YOU SAPLE OF THAT CALCIUM CORAL ROCK BUT I DIDNT GET AN ANSWER.