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Declining Anemone

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    Posted: May 31 2004 at 9:22pm
I noticed today that both my anemones have been declining in the last 6 weeks or so.  They have slowly shrunk and have moved alot.  I checked out WetWebMedia.com and from what I gathered I need to double my water changes and feed them a little better. I was wondering if anyone has had any other theories?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rstruhs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2004 at 10:31pm

Mine do the same thing.  I've tried feeding them, petting them, calling them names, letting them find their own spot, making them stay where I want them, with and without anenomefish, and still they shrink!

Maybe I should just get a bunch of aptasia!

Beware, please keep us informed as to what you find.

Regarding the water changes, does doubling mean to do 10% a month twice during the month (5% each time) or does it mean to do 10% twice a month (20% total)?

What kind of anenomes are they?

Rodney, Sandra, Jeffery, and Laura Struhs
South Jordan, Utah 98th South & 40th West.
(801) 282-2744

75 gallon reef
55 gallon reef
55 gallon FOWLR
20 gallon FOWLR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reptoreef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2004 at 10:52pm
Some anemones are very sensitive to lighting... SG changes, PH fluxes, and temp changes can really beat 'em down. BTW, are you having a lot of evaporation and having to top off frequently? How many species do you have in 1 tank? What is the size of your tank? Multiple species may have an all out chem war that can cause too much stress, too. The chances of a "quick remedy" are pretty much untrue(at least, not without side effects)... As for water changes, I perform a 20-25% waterchange, monthly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2004 at 11:41pm

Doubling means instead of my normal 10% a month I am doing 10% every two weeks. My tank is 50 gal with a 20 gal SUMP. I keep it at 77º and it doesnt ever stray more than .2 of a degree.  I have to top off 1 gallon a day most of the time occasionally it might be 2.  I have 4 Green Chromis, 2 Clarkii Clowns, 1 Yellow Tang, and two Bubble Tip Anemones.  I got ohh about 70lbs of Live Rock, 2-3 inch sandbed.  Its under 10Ks for 11 hours and Actinics for the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rstruhs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2004 at 5:34am
My tank is a 55 gal tied into a 20 gal (For my aggressive fish) with a 10 gal refugium (RDP).  My temp is at 74 to 76 degrees depending on winter/summer, otherwise the temp does not vary.  I have to top off about 1 gallon a day of RO water.  I have about 80 lbs live rock, a 2-3 inch sand bed (oolithic sand), 4 Green Chromis, 2 Ocellaris, 2 pink skunk clowns, 1 purple firefish, 1 firefish, 1 Yellow Tang, 1 Mandarin Goby, 1 checkered goby, 1 Flame Angel, 3 starfish, 1 emerald crab, about 30 snails, about 10 crabs.  They are under 260 watts of PC (1/2 actinic, 1/2 white) Actinics on for 12.5 hours, whites on for 11 hours.  No other anenomes, just the LT that the skunk clowns host in.
Rodney, Sandra, Jeffery, and Laura Struhs
South Jordan, Utah 98th South & 40th West.
(801) 282-2744

75 gallon reef
55 gallon reef
55 gallon FOWLR
20 gallon FOWLR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2004 at 6:40am
It's water issues that cause this. Not water quality as is commonly described, because all the known parameters are good. Still, it is a water condition that the anemone doesn't like.

I would change the skimming by either turning it off if it is running good and taking a lot out, or if you aren't skimming or it's not taking much out, try to crank it up. In other words, reverse whatever is going on.

Alternatively, I would use carbon. Place a fist sized bag in an area of good water flow, like hang it around a pump inlet. Carbon will remove chemicals from the water that you cannot easily test for and will also remove a few that skimming cannot.

Sometimes it is some change that is occurring naturally in your tank that you have little controlover, like some bacterial organism that is currently flourishing.

In the end, simply understand that this is why anemones have long been avoided in reef aquariums. The recent interest and success with anemones doing well and even splitting is different than how it used to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2004 at 10:40am
The only noticeable bacterial change I have seen is all of my Cyano finally disappeared.  I always thought that wa a good thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rstruhs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2004 at 6:43pm

Originally posted by Beware Beware wrote:

The only noticeable bacterial change I have seen is all of my Cyano finally disappeared.  I always thought that wa a good thing.

Wow, my cyano has recently disappeared also!  About the same time my anenome starting shrinking.

Do they need cyano in the system somewhere?  Or is it just a coincidence?

Mark, your thoughts?

Rodney, Sandra, Jeffery, and Laura Struhs
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(801) 282-2744

75 gallon reef
55 gallon reef
55 gallon FOWLR
20 gallon FOWLR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reptoreef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2004 at 9:57pm
Could be a sort of "absence" of certain bacteria... IMO, that wouldn't neccessarely be cyano, but there are other bacteria that could be effected by the same additives or changes in the waters chemical reactors. Have you used any type of "Red Slime Remover" or any such chemicals as this? As for carbon use, I agree with Mark, other than puting the carbon in a direct water flow... and might I mention the importance of the use of a reef safe carbon, as well. My reasoning for placement has to do with the possibility of too much flow over/through the carbon, if the carbon is to tumble or move, it is possible that the carbon will roll and grind against other carbon, causing the carbon to break down and release phosphates back into the system. My suggestion is to place about 1 cup per 25 gal(actual water volume...not including water displacement) of "reef safe" carbon in a 800 micron bag an and place it in an area of the sump or refugium(waterflow and current is good... just not enough to physically move the carbon in the bag. I would try each of these or any other attempts one at a time, though. All just MO, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jglover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2004 at 9:01am

salinity might be a problem as reptoreef suggested how often do you replace evaportion I'd do it at least daily.  Also my BTA likes warmer water around 80.  At least he's doing better now than he was before with colder water.  IMO

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2004 at 6:40pm

Yeah I was talking to my LFS and he said I should try raising my temp a couple degrees.  I am also going to head back down there and get some carbon.  I did not use any artificial means of ridding the Cyano it simply disappeared one day.  It happened during finals so I don't know when it disapeared other than sometime in the last 3 weeks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2004 at 7:21pm
The fact of the cyano disappearing is definitely indication of a change which is usually good, but of course some would have it the way it was...it's hard to please everyone!

In your case I wouldn't rely too much on the carbon but would try some invert food, like Sprung's Marine Snow or Marc Weiss' Black Powder and/or your own frozen food pulverized and fed to the tank along with the usual feedings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2004 at 12:32am
I actually finished a batch of coral food yesterday.  Its got lots of good stuff and is puree.  Anyway I ended up with 2x as much as expected so I got about a 2 years supply.  Where does one get an 800 micron bag?  I only have access to Aquatica, Petco, and PetsMart, do they sell them?  Ironic too Shaun wanted me to get both those products for my tank...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reptoreef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2004 at 12:02pm
I believe they have good quality micron bags at birdworld and msm. I'm not big on Marc Weiss products, but that's just MO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2004 at 8:26pm
I got me a fine one at Aquatica.  Anyway I also got my RO unit today and am so excited!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 10:43am

Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Alternatively, I would use carbon. Place a fist sized bag in an area of good water flow, like hang it around a pump inlet. Carbon will remove chemicals from the water that you cannot easily test for and will also remove a few that skimming cannot. 

Just wanted to add a bit of explanation to ensure that people use it properly. Activated carbon is a variety of orcanics that have been burnt. It could be husks, crushed bone, crushed coconut shell, whatever. The burning process causes it to have many fractures, cracks and voids.

Water flows through the filter BED of AC. contaminants are then ADsorbed or ABsorbed by the AC. Generally, carbon utilizes ADsorbtion which basically means that particulates of contaminants get caught by the media (AC).

A couple of important points: 1.) just sticking a bag of AC media into a volume of water provides very little benefit. Water must flow through the media for it to be effective. 2.) AC can be "Backflushed" which means that the water flow can be reversed flushing the ADsorbed contaminants off of or out of the media and back into the wastestream. Be cautious when removing or placing the AC media in systems since one can easily send a concentration of contaminants back into the system.

Different "formulas" of AC are available to target different varieties of contaminants. Most (too general?) are designed to remove suspended particulate and light metals.

I guess I am a filtration

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 11:00am
How often do you need to change carbon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 11:41am

Carbon does not have a useable life per say. It really depends on the levels of the contaminants in the wastestream. Once the AC media is impacted (it cannot adsorb or absorb anymore) it is no longer useful. When that is... who knows. I would look at the flow through the media and perform a calculation of how many times your total water volume would have passed through. The more total passes, the better.

Personally, I don't run AC. I guess if I did I would run it a week (depending on the size of the media bed I use) and flush it out really well. If you want to just leave it in the system, it won't leach or permeate anything bad except what was already in your system. You could make it a habit to flush it out really well every couple of weeks to a month with a water change. Most of what you will remove will be organics or particulates. I would say that after 3 or so uses it is spent.

Of course one could place it into a vessel and monitor the fluid pressure through. When the fluid pressure gets to X-psi, it's time to backflush. If backflushing fails to lower the pressure, it's time to replace the media. But, that sure does sound like alot of work!

As a side note, did you know that AC removes chlorides  . And you wondered why your SG dropped when you ran AC! Honestly, it absorbs a trace amount... don't worry.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 3:11pm

Carbon works by adsorbtion.  AC is very hydrophopic (that means it repels water).  Almost all the hydrophopic molecules you might find in your reef tank water are ogranics.  Essentially the same stuff that your skimmer removes.  Any molecule that floats by AC and is itself hydrophopic will adhere to the carbon surface (hence adsorbtion).  Once attached it is very unlikely to release.  It might release if the carbon suface was completely filled with hydrophopic molecules and a molecule even more hydrophopic were to come by.  That really hydrophopic molecule might displace one of the weaker ones.  Backflushing and watching DP is only a concern if you have particulate matter that physically plugs the spaces between carbon pieces.  If this is a problem, a solids (mechanical) filter in line upstream of the carbon would help to fix it.

Oh Carl, I think you mean that AC removes chlorine.  Chlorine is not chloride.

ClO- + C = Cl- + C-O
hypochloride + activated carbon = chloride + oxidized carbon

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2004 at 3:24pm

Would my floss bag be the best place for the carbon if it were in a sock or something?

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