WMAS Discussion Forum : Fish dying

Fish dying : One critical thing about purigen....

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:05:39 +0000

Author: MickeyB
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 7:05pm

One critical thing about purigen. Never regenerate it. Toss it and replace it. It's too cheap to risk the product not performing as designed. I have used purigen and chemipure for years with amazing success in small tanks. I personally have never encountered an issue when used properly. I'm sending the remainder of the bottle to a friend who oversees a lab in California to get a breakdown of the composition of this formulation. It will be interesting to see the results....stay tuned

Fish dying : So sorry about your loss of fish....

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:32:01 +0000

Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 5:32pm

So sorry about your loss of fish. I wish we could pinpoint the cause. I have a thought that it may have been excess Nitrites. See below for my thought process.

You mentioned Purigen and Chemipure both being used. If I remember correctly, these are ion exchange resins from two manufacturers that each claim they remove Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. I'm not criticizing the products but it may be worth noting that there have been complaints here on the forum in the past about these products causing problems. I personally used Purigen just recently. It was okay on the first pass but when I recharged and replaced it in the tank, something about my coral response told me to take it out. I believe something deleterious was being released into the water.

However unlikely, it is still possible that there was a reaction in the ion exchange resins upon introduction of the supplement. By description, the way an ion exchange resin works is that one ion takes the place of another ion on the resin surface. Something in the supplement could have traded places with ionic elements that had previously been removed from the water and held by the resin. If those ionic elements were kicked out to the water in significant quantities, Nitrites for example, fish could be killed as a result. Excess Nitrites can kill fish while coral remain unaffected.

If this indeed did happen, excess Nitrites would have been naturally processed by the tanks biofiltration so that Nitrites in the water could have already returned to acceptable levels by the time the water was tested.

I have had personal experience with promoting items for use in our tanks. I can vouch from personal experience that the people who develop and promote reef products are very interested in making their product better understood, of better quality and also making it right with us, the end users. I believe we would all appreciate and benefit if you were to talk to the distributor/manufacturer about your incident with this probiotic liquid coral food to see if the cause can be pinpointed.

Mahalo,
Mark

Fish dying : I do not believe the cleaner shrimp...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:14:05 +0000

Author: DMower
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 5:14pm

I do not believe the cleaner shrimp has anything to do with the death of your fish.

I doubt very much that a disease was introduced in the small amount of water transferred to your tank when the cleaner shrimp was introduced.

I know you have always kept excellent tanks. The only conclusion I can come to is the same as yours, a contaminate was introduced into the tank. A likely source being the probiotic bacteria supplement.

Fish dying : I run a monster skimmer considering...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:46:50 +0000

Author: MickeyB
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 3:46pm

I run a monster skimmer considering the size of the tank a cadlights pls 50 rated for 50 gallons. It's a champ. Being I don't know exactly what the ingredients are in this product and me not using the name of the company as not to damage their reputation. I am looking at any any all possibilities before I blame the product. I do not carbon dose. My water is always pristine except when I add this product it does cloud the tank for a few hours then it's back to crystal clear. After the skimmer I run a media stack by intank with filter floss, purigen and chemipure. Then to a small refugium before returning to the tank. This is my 3rd biocube I've set up the exact same way with amazing results. I've even gone to the extent of having my water tested by 2 different sources and we all come up with the same results. My only conclusion is the addition if this food. Whether I received a "contaminated batch" or not I will cease in using it from now on.

Fish dying : Did you see any water clarity...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:18:24 +0000

Author: Bryce
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 2:18pm

Did you see any water clarity issue that supports the bacterial bloom and oxygen loss theory? Do you run a skimmer on that tank? I guess if you dosed at night like you said any bloom and subsequent oxygen loss could have happened at night and would not have been noticed especially if your lights were off and or you do not run a skimmer. Were you dosing both the bacteria and a food source for the bacteria (usually some form of carbon) Here is a good article with a listing of the most common products, can we assume it was a product of one of these manufactures? I am interested as I just started dosing Prodibio. From the article "4. Use and maintain a good protein skimmer. A productive protein skimmer should be used in all probiotic methodologies. Foam fractionization removes some dead bacteria prior to decomposition, and may be a significant export pathway for the nutrients that have been “locked up” by the enhanced bacterial populations resulting from organic carbon dosing, although other important nutrient export pathways are involved, as discussed. Additionally, a protein skimmer adds an additional safeguard in the event of a bacterial bloom caused by an overdose of organic carbon. If your protein skimmer performance is marginal, consider upgrading before beginning a probiotic regimen.

5. Don’t overdose organic carbon. Although less common in commercial probiotic systems than in DIY applications, overdosing of organic carbon is certainly possible. Remember, these methodologies have the capability of causing significant shifts in the bacterial dynamics in the aquarium—in the water column, on the substrate, and on and in the tissues of coral. Excessively rapid nutrient depletion can cause stress in corals. In case of a substantial overdose, a bacterial “bloom,” or “whiteout,” can occur, usually presenting as a semi-opaque or milky white change to the water. The primary concern in this instance is oxygen depletion in the water column, caused by respiration by the bacteria cells. In most instances, the tank inhabitants will survive. However, a quality protein skimmer is the best defense against catastrophic oxygen depletion. The main caveat here is to go slow. Incremental increases in the dose and careful observation are the best safeguards."

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/probiotics-demystified

Edited by Bryce - March 11 2014 at 2:25pm

Fish dying : What is the stuff you were dosing?...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:02:23 +0000

Author: LaRue
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 2:02pm

What is the stuff you were dosing?

Fish dying : The only living organism that...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:53:24 +0000

Author: MickeyB
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 1:53pm

The only living organism that was added to the tank is a small/medium sized skunk cleaner shrimp

Fish dying : Thanks for the replies. Fish at...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:42:24 +0000

Author: MickeyB
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 1:42pm

Thanks for the replies. Fish at no time were gasping for air that would give the obvious signs of oxygen loss. The product was dosed right before lights out, fish healthy and eating then fish dead the next morning. The tanks flow is excellent. I have had previous problems with coral foods I've tested in the past so I have been doing daily testing to make sure this product was not spiking ammonia and nitrates after dosing like many do. This one did not spike any testable parameter. I don't buy the fish disease theory. These fish had all been together for over 4 months, were in exceptional health and all purchased from different LFS. The only thing that I can pin this on is the addition of this supposedly "completely safe" and can't be "overdosed" product.

Fish dying : If that probiotic product was...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:51:03 +0000

Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:51am

If that probiotic product was absolutely the only difference in many months and by stopping it's addition no more fish die, then that certainly is the logical conclusion.

My thoughts on this are that in a well established tank, adding a small amount of bottled bacteria could not grow so large a bacterial population that it would reduce available O2 such that fish suffocate. More likely there was some other reason, perhaps an ingredient or an accidental ingredient in that bottle which affected the fish. Mistakes happen.

To try and get to the bottom of this, it could be helpful to show us a picture of the tank and describe the water movement. The fact that coral appeared to show increased growth and unless there has been a very recent downturn in coral health....

Is there a grounding probe in the tank? If so, was it unplugged/removed prior to testing for stray voltage?

Was any living organism (coral, snails, etc.) added to the tank within 2 weeks prior to the onset of fish deaths?

Is there a possibility of contamination from an unknown or accidental source? The reason I ask is because a friends tank crashed for unknown reasons, that is until it was discovered that his visiting mother-in-law had used his dedicated tank bucket to mop the floor with a disinfecting soap.

Aloha,
Mark

Fish dying : There are fish diseases in which...

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:32:04 +0000

Author: Bryce
Subject: 70214
Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:32am

There are fish diseases in which it may show no signs such as Mycobacterium marinum, and unless you dissected the fish and know what you are looking for you can not eliminate disease, a multimeter will not detect voltage if what ever may be causing voltage is not causing voltage at that moment you measured it (i.e. the equipment is not in a constant short or not on at the time such as a heater, ato pump, etc.), what was the product brand name maybe that will help people help you, but if you ask 10 reefers if they have had fish die for what seems like no apparent reason and didn't show signs I'm sure 7-8 people would say they have had fish die in this way, hopefully someone else has some thoughts but with the plethora of things we all try to maintain at any given moment in our tanks it could be hard to say for sure what caused a fish death.

Edited by Bryce - March 11 2014 at 11:32am