Utah winter greenhouse?
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Topic: Utah winter greenhouse?
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Subject: Utah winter greenhouse?
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 7:47am
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A big Aloha to everyone, Thanks to Bob for the lead in to this topic:
The idea to make it a dugout/subsurface greenhouse has been on my mind since 2005. Anthony Calfo wrote a book about his coral greenhouse, saying that summer cooling was a major difficulty, even at the 40 degree latitude of Pittsburgh. which coincidentally is the same as SLC. It seemed to me a reasonable expectation, to take advantage of how well coral grow under the amazing power of sunlight while in a controlled aquarium environment. A few months ago, after returning to Utah from living almost two years in the paradise of Hawaii, I began to feel prompted that now was the time to go forward with it. The caveat was how to moderate the heating and cooling problems of the traditional above ground four transparent sided greenhouse. I had the idea in December 2005 to go below ground (see drawings below). Searches of the www found no answers in 2005/6. This time the answers were there. Heating and cooling can come from ancient technologies re-discovered, developed and now found on the web, for example: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Walipini_Underground_Greenhouses" rel="nofollow - Walipini Our coral farm greenhouse will be open to all. Everyone will be invited to come, sit and talk reef. It will be a warm tropical paradise with tropical plants, flowers and vines, like my beloved Hawaii, where we can gather and relax to enjoy tropical marine organisms and lush vegetation flourishing all around us. As you read this and the posts that follow, ideas will come to you. Please share them here. All ideas are valid. This will be our brainstorming thread, a community endeavor of ideas. Just one simple rule. No criticism of others or your own ideas. Let the ideas flow. All are valid because they lead to other ideas. Mahalo ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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BobC63 wrote:Replies:
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 7:56am
 Upon realization that the sun is lower in the sky during winter, this drawing followed.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 8:10am
This is appropriate and very important because another idea for this Walipini style coral greenhouse is to take LBTR and grow it into inexpensive LR. The evaluations of Utah Oolitic and Utah Rock from around 2000 were fairly positive, showing no impurities that could significantly effect aquarium husbandry. I'm anxious to see Snowsrfr's findings and then investigate if the concern can be alleviated. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Ghetto Man
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 8:27am
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A few thoughts (way out of my area of expertise - if I have one - so take them for what they are worth). You're hoping that being underground will keep things cool, like how my basement is cool all year. The ground is always cool in my basement - I would think you would want to put these tanks directly on the ground instead of on stands. You might even use big tubs and bury them... Being buried, the greenhouse would stay cooler than an above ground one, but I don't know if it would be cool enough. To help with additional cooling, you could dig a trench and run water through the trench to cool it. You probably wouldn't want tank water because you wouldn't want to risk a leak, but you could do a closed loop geothermal chiller. I remember reading about a successful one on reefcentral 5+ years ago.
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Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 8:32am
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There is a free/beta software from Autodesk called Vasari that will let you do some sun path studies if you are interested. I can create a quick revit model to import if you have some rough dimensions in mind. (I believe you can import sketchup as well, but only a file you get from the paid version)
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: June 16 2013 at 6:58am
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Those are great ideas. I took the old drawings above and added in those suggestions and other technologies found so far to come up with the modified drawing below. (I just found some information about how the earth's store of heat has a 6 month lag time. Another design change to come.  )Mahalo for your ideas   ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Aquarium Creations
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 9:12am
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You can also look into a Solar tube like this one i am looking at, All the benefits of natural light without the heat http://www.homedepot.com/p/ODL-10-in-Tubular-Skylight-Kit-With-Composite-Flashing-for-Asphalt-Roofs-Including-Solar-Powered-Dimmer-Kit-EZ10ECL/100656634#.Ub8pmKt9CWM" rel="nofollow - http://www.homedepot.com/p/ODL-10-in-Tubular-Skylight-Kit-With-Composite-Flashing-for-Asphalt-Roofs-Including-Solar-Powered-Dimmer-Kit-EZ10ECL/100656634#.Ub8pmKt9CWM
------------- Aquarium Maintenance,Consulting,Custom Built Glass Aquariums Rimless/Euro,24Hr Emergency Service 8015485201 Www.UtahAquariumDoctors.com [email protected] |
Posted By: icenine
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:55am
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Here is a tank thread I followed using the solar tubes. He would up taking that build down and started up another using the same tubes. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1457056&page=29" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1457056&page=29 |
Posted By: Pete Moss
Date Posted: June 25 2013 at 9:41am
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Like Bob, I'd like to see what you could pull off with some modern technology, however using the sun and a dugout isn't exactly making any technological advances. Mother Earth has been growing corals like that for ages! She was doing it before it was cool.  Maybe if you lived farther south..... It'd be easier to pull off in St. George, or other locations where the weather is a little more consistent. You're only viable option ultimately would be to build an insulated greenhouse, with a humidifier, and temperature-sensitive vents ( high quality temp-sensitive vent hinges would go a long way in the summer ) Using solar tubes through the roof of the greenhouse would be your best option, as a completely open roof would without a doubt cause too much heat buildup. Even then you would want an emergency cooling/heating system, temp gauges, and an alarm system that warns you if conditions become intolerable. Since you plan on planting a tropical rainforest in your back yard, it's going to take more than a chiller and a heater to pull this off. The entire potato cellar needs to be brought to acceptable temperatures. Your best option would be to use the existing insulated building that you own with a temperature control system; your house. Which is why everyone is bringing up the solar tubes. While it is a fun idea to think about, this is Utah, not Hawai'i. The climate is so drastically different, that burying your greenhouse in the ground a bit isn't going counter the lack of consistency in Utah's weather. Just my thoughts.
------------- 125g 90g 2x33g 34g What stores do I recommend? Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 ) Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 ) Member of GCFB |
Posted By: bfessler
Date Posted: June 25 2013 at 10:13am
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This is an interesting thread and I've been thinking myself about making a greenhouse style coral farm/fish room. The winter chill isn't as big a problem as it might seem. I have a north facing home with wide picture windows facing the south. In the winter when the sun shines my living room temp easily climbs above 80 unless we cover the windows. Utah has an average of 300 sunny days per year leaving only 65 days scattered throughout the year of cloudy or stormy days. Granted you would need some way of heating the greenhouse both at night and on cloud covered days but you could take advantage of the warmth of the sun using solar water heating and large storage tanks to store heat and distribute it when the need arises. I'm not saying this would be an easy task or even an inexpensive task but I think it could be done with the right mix of Solar and geothermal energy for heat and cooling and a climate controlled ventilation system. I also thought of building something similar against the south side of our home to take advantage of the Sun as well as heating the space with the furnace of the home. Another possibility would be to use a furnace similar to my garage heater. As long as there was enough insulation temps could be kept warm enough to manage. My ideas didn't include tropical plants just providing a space where fish and coral could survive which makes it much easier as the whole space doesn't have to be heated or cooled as water temperature is the only thing that has to be kept even. While it will definitely add complexity to support tropical plants I still think it can be done. ------------- Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected] |
Posted By: Aquarium Creations
Date Posted: June 25 2013 at 4:05pm
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http://www.docaquarium.com/about-us/aquaculture/" rel="nofollow - http://www.docaquarium.com/about-us/aquaculture/ ------------- Aquarium Maintenance,Consulting,Custom Built Glass Aquariums Rimless/Euro,24Hr Emergency Service 8015485201 Www.UtahAquariumDoctors.com [email protected] |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 9:05am
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Thanks Eric. That makes the seventh coral farm to contact. The initial list is here: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64587" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64587 Are there more? Mahalo for all your comments. The concerns about heating and cooling are paramount. Keeping the water temperature at 70-80 year round via passive means is the goal and the challenge. Here is the latest drawing. Keep in mind that this is only a cross section showing the critical parts. This pilot facility will be about 30-40 feet long east to west and "the cave" will extend the full length of the structure with 3-4 cold air vents and two solar chimneys.  The earth provides a fairly constant temperature year round. To utilize the effect seems to be relatively straight forward. See http://www.greenershelter.org/index.php?pg=3" rel="nofollow - AGS - Annualized Geo-Solar . The drawing above has thick tan colored lines indicating a cold water barrier and earth insulation. The existing driveway has already been providing this "umbrella" of sorts, to the ground beneath it. Two extremes, summer heat and winter cold, are of major concern. Of course the outside temperature in Utah during Spring and Fall can be very pleasant, but infrared radiation (heat) from the sun is magnified inside a greenhouse (even during winter and on cloudy days). You can see in the image, how "the cave" and solar chimneys work as a system to draw hot air out and cool air in. This, coupled with AGS heating should keep it nice from March to October, but what about November to February? Winter cold, especially during consecutive stormy winter days/nights is still a concern. What is the availability of stored heat during these times? The AGS principle seems to provide a base temperature of somewhere between 60-70, but how can we keep the tank water at 70-80 degrees without typical heaters? What about larger amounts of water storage or even commercially manufactured http://www.puretemp.com/industries.html?ind=ind1" rel="nofollow - Phase Change Materials (PCM) ? Also, what benefit might be gained from a thermal insulation screen/blanket, pulled across the inside of the entire greenhouse at night? What are your ideas? BTW, the lavender colored transparent material in the drawing could be http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/solarsoft-85-corrugated-polycarbonate/polycarbonate-panels" rel="nofollow - white polycarbonate , with 45% light transmission properties while the winter solstice facing material is clear polycarbonate providing 90% solar transmission. Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 9:23am
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You should look into a trombe wall for heat storage and night heating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall (The pictured Design Build Bluff rammed-earth wall was built by the girl I sit next to at work) Even more applicable to what you are looking to do is this version: https://www.thenaturalhome.com/heatstorage.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.thenaturalhome.com/heatstorage.htm
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 9:36am
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Yeah, excellent. The wall on the north side is meant to be a Trombe wall. Did you know that PCM can hold 40x more heat than water? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 11:53am
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Aloha everyone, I dug a test hole down to 6.5 feet and everything is looking good for this subsurface greenhouse coral farm.  Input from my partners suggested modifications to ensure sufficient light year round and cooling during the summer. Also found a source of free used hot tubs. Here is the latest drawing:  Mahalo for your input. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Corey Price
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 12:28pm
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Mark, So when does the planning for the big dig start? Corey |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 6:11pm
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Aloha Corey, We hope to start digging soon and have it running by winter. Next week Donna and I are visiting three above ground greenhouse coral farms. Did you see this new thread? http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66374" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66374 We just need to get someone like you to draw up more professional and detailed plans so we can figure out the materials list and devise a good way to put the pieces together. Then we will need to find someone with a backhoe that is willing to partner with us and dig out about 150 cubic yards of earth. It's going to be a cut and cover engineering project. Also, we plan to use timbers to hold back the clay composition ground rather than an expensive cement foundation and walls. Mahalo for your interest and your help, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 10:43am
| What is your plan to contain the salt water to prevent it from contaminating the soil? |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 3:45pm
"soil contamination"  This is a very "green" greenhouse. It has a very small "carbon footprint" because the only electricity used will be to move water. Lighting, heating and cooling are to be functions of direct and passive solar energy. We have long followed the practice of doing 10% water changes every 2-3 months, sending the salt water into the most convenient place, the sewer. Can you see any reason to change that procedure here? I invite you to come visit to see the way we already economize on man-made energy use. Passive and direct solar energy provide ample benefit to our current reef systems. Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 750 E Lakepoint Dr. #4V Murray, Utah ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: ch3tt
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 4:27pm
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Do you have a location lined up yet? ------------- Red Sea Reefer 625 XXL |
Posted By: Fatman
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 9:05pm
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. |
Posted By: icenine
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 10:11pm
| ....when I read the question I thought it was more geared towards what happens if there is a catastrophic failure and all the SW drops. If that was the case, whatever land this is on would turn into a patch of desert. +1 on the underground structure needing a permit. This be earthquake territory from what I understand. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 05 2013 at 8:19am
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Mahalo for your input.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 27 2013 at 8:02am
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Update: We had a wonderful experience back east. It was extremely informative to visit two coral farm greenhouses, Richard Perrin's Tropicorium and Than Thein's Tidal Gardens. In some ways, the differences between the two are like night and day, but yet they both utilize universal biological concepts. (Richard goes by the common nickname but the forum won't allow the letters d, i, c and k to appear together )We visited Tropicorium on a Wednesday morning. The entrance is a typical backyard/home based LFS displaying walls of tanks with fish for sale and dry goods on shelves. Further in, we entered the greenhouse:   There are two rooms, each with six of these gigantic vats full of water. Most of the vats have no coral frags, just LR and fish (that cannot be caught). One vat holds several breeding shark pairs. Each year about 25 tank raised sharks are sold. Coral are kept in substrate filled small plastic tubs:   Soft coral and Chalice are pretty much it. Richard told me that at one time, (I assume ~15 years ago) he was growing and selling all kinds of coral to public aquariums at [huge] profit. Then Bruce Carlson (also famous for the "Carlson Surge Device") of the Waikiki Aquarium (U of HI) visited to see how it was done, started his own coral farm and sold to public aquariums at lower prices. Needless to say, Richard does not care much for Bruce. (If I understood correctly, Richard has recently been awarded a $2 million NASA grant to collect and study coastal marine algae for biofuel so he doesn't need the money that Tropicorium [might] be making.) Note: I built and used a Carlson Surge Device and also visited the Waikiki Aquarium several years ago, we should definitely thank Bruce for his contributions to the hobby ( http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40777" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40777 ). During my visit to Tropicorium, co-operated by Richard's son, Ray, I saw a few Montipora but no other SPS. In fact, I believe it would be tough to grow SPS in these vats because water circulation is almost nonexistent as can be seen from the top scum visible in the above pics. The small tubs of substrate and coral sit on full size panels of corrugated fiberglass which extend the breadth and length of the coral vats separating each vat into an upper and lower channel. Water moves slowly across the coral topside and returns underneath. A group of 4 or 5 - 2" PVC air driven uplift tubes create what little there is of circulation. Here are two underneath views and a view of the end where the water circulates down to the underside:    The pic below is Richard Perrin in his greenhouse. Richard taught LeRoy Headlee of http://www.garf.org" rel="nofollow - www.garf.org something of how to propagate coral. In turn, LeRoy came to the WMAS in the Spring of 1996 which begin our instruction regarding the ins and outs of coral propagation. LeRoy Headlee has since passed away. Did you know that http://www.garf.org/ugly.html" rel="nofollow - Reef Janitors /the CUC is famous because of LeRoy Headlee?  Next: Tidal Gardens ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 27 2013 at 8:56am
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Aloha, Three days later we dropped in on Tidal Gardens early Saturday morning September 13, 2013. Than Thein was so kind to make time for us. He was very interested in our plans for a subsurface greenhouse and I hope to have further contact with him. Than was very open and extremely helpful. He gave me some tips about what is important and what he would do different next time. The visit to Tidal Gardens was very productive. Many thanks to Than Thein. Tidal Gardens uses the internet very effectively. While Tropicorium has very little internet sales, Than said that his sales are mostly via the internet. Part of the reason can be seen just by comparing the two websites. A tour and history of the greenhouse is right on their website. Here is the link: http://www.tidalgardens.com/aquaculture-greenhouse-coral-farm-a/253.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.tidalgardens.com/aquaculture-greenhouse-coral-farm-a/253.htm Here are the pics I took:   Owner Than Thein:         I'm a little embarrassed to say, but these are all my pics of Tidal Gardens. I got so enthralled with the cleanliness and organization of the facility that most of what I have from the visit is a confirmation in my mind of how a coral farm greenhouse ought to be. Than took some of his valuable time to sit down with me (very nice to have a chair to sit on in the greenhouse) and discuss it all. Next: latest drawings - almost ready to begin excavating ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 27 2013 at 9:11am
 A "cave" made from ~2 ft. diameter metal pipe, set 8-10 feet deep surrounds the greenhouse to provide a constant earth temperature of 50-60 degrees for summer cooling and winter warming. The three Coral Spas (free, old hot tubs) and a Trombe wall will absorb and radiate solar heat. Top view:  Approximately 1500 gallons of water act as thermal storage surrounded by the amazing thermal storage of the dry earth. An insulation umbrella will moderate/even out the heat of summer and cold of winter and reduce the effect of freezing snowmelt and cooling rain. We wish to voice our appreciation to the many who have already expressed, publicly and privately, their interest in helping see this project come to fruition. Continued questions and comments are welcomed Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 call/text anytime ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Corey Price
Date Posted: September 28 2013 at 7:35am
Yes, the structure needs to be engineered. Mark, We should start to talk about that engineering.  Also, I think we should talk to a mechanical engineer about the heat load versus the ground cooling capacity. Corey |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 28 2013 at 10:06am
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Did they mention this to you while you were at the Tropicorium? http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23448299/tropicorium-employees-charged-with-federal-wildlife-crimes" rel="nofollow - http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23448299/tropicorium-employees-charged-with-federal-wildlife-crimes |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 28 2013 at 10:52am
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Nope. That news video gives a good view of the place. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: September 28 2013 at 10:54am
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 02 2013 at 10:30am
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Aloha y'all, The design for the coral greenhouse has significantly changed. Drawing revision number 8 is in the works. Following your advice I checked the Riverton City building codes. Any structure with a floor space 200 square feet or less needs no approval/inspection. We want to keep this thing under the radar, intending it to be a pilot facility. A 20'x10' greenhouse should work out perfect. Corey Price suggests it be built as a "Proof of Concept", a miniature of the larger facility we hope to build. A small structure will allow this and still keep costs low. The other major revision has to do with how much sunlight to admit. Than Thein (Tidal Gardens) emphasized that coral require much less sunlight than a full greenhouse provides, yet in the winter SPS coral growth slows because of lack of light. I'm actually seeing the effects of too much sunlight in my tank sitting in the full days sunlight of an unobstructed south facing window! With this in mind the revised design, utilizing translucent glazing, minimizes summer sunlight and encourages winter sunlight, hopefully .This will also minimize summer heat which has been a major concern emphasized by http://pesn.com/2012/06/24/9602115_Tour_of_David-Allans_Solar_Home/" rel="nofollow - David Allen the builder/occupant of a passive solar home here in Utah. Regarding the coral systems, skimmers will be a must, to keep coral safe in the case of mishap. The ability to do real time monitoring with controllers will be important too, since there will be no reason for a person to be in the greenhouse most of the day. This is what Bob was thinking, from his quote in the OP, right? Thanks for reading. As always, we are open to suggestions because we cannot find where this has been done before. Mahalo, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 02 2013 at 10:41am
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 02 2013 at 11:45pm
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Hello everyone, Do you recognize the names Sprung, Moe, Perrin, Delbeek, Headlee, Shimik, Calfo, Michael, Paletta, Borneman, Thiel, Pro, Miller and Blundell? You have likely come into the hobby standing on the shoulders of the giants that have gone before. These are just a few of the ordinary people who did extraordinary things both great and small. We are very appreciative of their work, their accomplishments and their contribution to the marine hobby. I would like to introduce myself. I have been a reef hobbyist since 1993. During the last 20 years the Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society, which I helped found, paid for many of those pioneers to come to Salt Lake as guest speakers. When they arrived, a few of us took time to meet and visit with our guest speakers before and after the club meetings. We did this in order to learn as much as we could. As you know, a few of us are currently attempting to do something that has never been done before. It is a pioneering endeavor, built on the work of all those pioneers who have come before. I hope we can count on all of you to help in a positive way with positive suggestions regarding this pioneering endeavor. Aloha, Mark 808-345-1049 call or text anytime ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 07 2013 at 12:03pm
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Isn't it amazing how necessity is the mother of invention! Again I say Aloha. In a recent conversation, Corey emphasized to me that this coral greenhouse is a http://techopedia.com/definition/4066/proof-of-concept-poc" rel="nofollow - Proof of Concept (POC) , built small scale to demonstrate that the idea works. Out of necessity, as mentioned in a previous post, our POC Subsurface Coral Greenhouse has been scaled down. Some of the best contributors to this concept felt that the previous plans did not allow sufficient diffused light and yet allowed too much direct infrared radiation(heat). Revision 10 of the drawings are included below with improvements: - Glazing is enlarged to an area approximately 8'x30' (includes the top half of the east end). - Adjustable shutters allow full winter solar radiation yet allow only diffused summer radiation. Cross section side view  Cross section top view  As always, suggestions are welcomed. Mahalo, Mark 808-345-1049 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 8:26pm
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Looking for winter operating local greenhouses. The design has come together pretty good for keeping the greenhouse cool in the hot summer, but as the weather grows ever colder, now I'm concerned about ensuring it stays warm on the freezing cloudy days/nights of winter. Lately I find myself more concerned with the aspect of making this facility with an extremely small carbon footprint, than I am about it's eventual use as a coral farm! I went to my sacred place of inspiration the other day where I have received much inspiration for this project. I had the distinct feeling that a wintertime visit to local Orchid Growers/Farmers would be beneficial. I went to the Utah Orchid Society website but contacting someone there is not as easy as our forum. If anyone knows of a greenhouse in Utah that operates during the winter, please let me know. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 8:43pm
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Plant greenhouses aren't uncommon at all. I spend a lot of time at Cactus & Tropicals. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 02 2013 at 10:36pm
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Yeah, nice place. The Salt Lake store has huge heaters that burn a lot of natural gas and use a lot of coal generated electricity. That's a lot of CO2 emission. I also know that not too long ago one of the two stores had an electrical mishap for a day resulting in the loss of plants totaling thousands of dollars. I'm wondering if any greenhouse around here has attempted a smaller carbon footprint by using reliable passive solar-earth heating and cooling? Ideas anyone? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 11:53am
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I can't see why anyone would. I'd go with gas as well. Maybe someone out there has gone passive that I just haven't seen yet. Dessert Garden just closed for the year.... right? I really like their greenhouses. You may be able to just wonder around there. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 12:21pm
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J&J Nursery in Layton is open year round but not sure what they use for heating. ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Jeremyw
Date Posted: May 07 2014 at 4:02pm
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Mark this is from an email I got from a Gentleman named Andrew: I am not particularly interested in coral, but I was searching for references on walipini and insulation and the thread on Mark Peterson's dugout greenhouose, "Utah winter greenhouse?", came up. I have a couple of comments/questions for Mark:
Are there other examples of PAHS (or AGS) being applied to greenhouses? I have a 21" diameter solar tube with a 12' vertical run to my first floor kitchen. It puts out a tremendous amount of light. I purchased it through the local Velux dealer in Salt Lake (the box stores don't carry the larger units). I had to cobble together my installation using a residential kit and two rigid-tube sections from a commercial kit (the flexible tube would not work with the long run and I wanted the round diffuser of the residential kit). I also have two 10" units upstairs that illuminate a 40' hallway. One would have been sufficient. I think that an 18" or 21" solar tube might provide enough light for a large tank, especially if you brought the rigid tube fairly close to the water's surface (leaving enough room to work). A well insulated shed could house the tanks. That being said, I like the idea of combining walipini and PAHS elements. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 12 2014 at 9:43am
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Thanks for posting that Jeremy. Aloha Andrew, Please contact me at [email protected] or 808-345-1049. There are only a few other places I have found that used the earth sheltered concepts for a greenhouse, but they used only partial AGS/PAHS concepts. My goal is to use a fully subsurface method of cooling and heating to completely eliminate the need for electrical cooling and heating equipment and monthly bills. Solar tubes are good. I also installed one on my previous home. Lighting is actually not a problem but for the size of greenhouse I have envisioned, too many solar tubes would be required to light dozens of coral farm troughs. The need is an ability to adjust louvers on south facing glazing to bring in more sunlight during Winter Solstice and yet restrict sunlight during Summer Solstice. Aloha ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 12 2014 at 10:03am
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Update: We have been checking into the local greenhouses that use geothermal heating. They still use electrically operated evaporative cooling in the summer. Some are pretty much abandoned and in disrepair. Looking at these as a possible interim facility, I'm not convinced. It feels to me like a compromise solution. Is it the right thing? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: simpleyork
Date Posted: May 12 2014 at 2:47pm
| hey they do have vents that will open and close by themselves depending on the tempurature of the greenhouse http://www.simplysolargreenhouses.com/vents2.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.simplysolargreenhouses.com/vents2.html , no electricity needed, on another thought, blinds used to reflect the light/heat some can help keep it cooler. Another idea are fans that are using solar panels for their electricity. sorry if this is a repeat |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: May 13 2014 at 8:50am
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To answer your questions let me put it this way. Many many years ago, as a kid, I remember being in Timpanogos cave where the Ranger told us the temperature stays at around 50-55 all year. The http://harmoniouspalette.com/PAHS-retrofit.html" rel="nofollow - PAHS(Passive Annual Heat Storage) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annualized_geo_solar" rel="nofollow - AGS(Annualized Geo Solar) concept is that we create a cave designed to keep the greenhouse at 65-85 all year. Yes, those automatic vents are awesome but may be unnecessary. The adjustable louvers/blinds for control of visible light will be outside to control the amount of summer heat that enters the structure. If solar panels are used, it will be for running water pumps to further reduce dependence on purchased electricity. This last winter, I came to the realization that ground water in the cave may be counter productive to keeping the greenhouse at 65-85 degrees. * I just had another epiphany.* Why can't the insulating umbrella be just lightly covered with a protective layer of dirt rather than 2 feet underground? What other changes could be made to this insulation umbrella which is meant to be a barrier to heat draining precipitation and moderator of seasonal temperature extremes? It's time to revise the drawings. Aloha ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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