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Ryan Thompson 
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 Topic: LED myths....
Posted: February 11 2011 at 11:57am |
So I have been following LED technology for quite some time. I can remember when Evilc66 started promoting them pretty heavy on Nano Reef a few years back.
I even kept a 5 gallon tank under LED's for 8 months at one point. They were bottom line LED's but I successfully kept zoas and mushrooms. I even kept Chaeto in the tank with no problems. It actually grew quite well under almost all blue light.
My biggest issue with LED was color rendering. Some corals lost colors while others looked great.
There just didn't seem to be a happy medium. My other issue with LED is the spotlight effect they provide. One part of the coral gets blasted with white while the other gets hit with blue.
Don't take this all wrong though. I had success with LED on certain corals and my LED's weren't even meant to keep corals. My new tank will actually have LED over it. It will be a PAR30 LED bulb from Rapid LED. I will choose SPECIFIC coral for this tank that I KNOW will work.
But there are some major con's to LED that people never want to bring up. They always want to tout lines they hear like:
"Never replace bulbs again" "50,000 hours!" "They produce no heat! Totally green."
Those are all myths. Some have a little truth behind them but they are mostly myths. LED's do produce heat. It is just different from other lighting methods we are accustomed too.
This article was a great write up and worth the read. It is from the US Dept of Energy. It shows what myths are true and which are false. It has absolutely nothing do with corals or our hobby. It has to do with LED's and how they compare to other lighting methods.
Here is the article for you to read.
I hope it sheds some light on the subject for people interested.
My advice is to beware of the LED's you use. The cheap Chinese knock offs will eventually start failing and people will not save any money in the end. They will actually lose money.
LED's is an industry where every 6 months new technology is introduced. So those great XYZ LED's you spent a bunch on today will be old technology in 6 months. If not properly cooled you WILL be replacing them in 2 years if not sooner. At $5-6 a piece, you aren't saving any money in bulb replacements. For those that went from MH to LED, your heater is working a ton more than it used to in the winter. Your chiller may not be running that much in the summer but it all washes out in the end.
I am an advocate of LED technology but think it will ALWAYS fall short for our application. I think T5's and LED's are the best fit possible for a tank when combined.
In the end, I think LED is a HUGE marketing hype that people are trying to get rich off overnight. In 3 or 4 years people will still be using MH, T5, PC and more than likely plasma. LED's are not an end all for this hobby. Yes, I will be using them on my new tank and future tanks but I know their weaknesses and am willing to admit them.
Seems those people who spend $500+ for a fixture always tout that LED's are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Very few ever admit that LED's have downfalls.
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bur01014
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 1:34pm |
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I just gone done retrofitting 24 Cree mixed (40/60) cool white and Royal Blues into my 6X54 Watt T5 fixture...it is just stellar now....I nicknamed my fixture The Terminator because I got all these fans and additional aluminum mounted up now.....I couldn't be happier with the t5/led combination as you briefly mentioned....Get all the spectrum covered, LEDs pack great par, forget using actinics the Royal Blues add great pop, and shimmer! Btw- no spotlighting here....no reason to use optics 5-6 inches above my tank.....my LPS don't need a tan anyways....
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bfessler
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 2:18pm |
Hay Ryan, That's a little pessimistic don't you think?
I have to agree with some of what your saying but properly designed LED fixtures will in fact reduce heat transfer to the tank, Cost less to run than other alternatives for the same amount of light provided and with the new high power violet and red LED's deficiencies in the spectrum are also being addressed. It's the same as T5 fixtures. Not all T5 fixtures are created equal as you well know. Without proper cooling and reflectors T5's aren't as efficient and the bulbs fail prematurely. So it is with LED's without proper heat sinks and cooling LED life is reduced. Additionally quality LED lighting manufacturers are addressing the easy replacement of lamps, customizable color combinations and other issues that plagued early designs. I was looking at a fixture from ReefTech that is modular in design for easy parts replacement and modular in that fixtures can be ganged together for larger tanks and the optics are optional and available in a variety of angles to prevent the spotting you referred to. So just like MH, T5, PC and other options it's the design of the fixture that makes the difference.
The exciting thing about LED's is the potential to build your own fixture and the ability to have complete control over the amount and quality of the output. I am going to be building a LED fixture with dimmable drivers on both the white and blue channels for my frag tank. The advantage of this configuration is that I can dial up and back the amount of light to meet the needs of the corals in the tank. With my 4 lamp T5 the only adjustment I have is to run 2 lamps or 4 lamps and the duration each lamp is on. With the LED using my controller and the 0-10V input I can bring up the lamps from 0 to full power over whatever time I decide, Tune the balance of white to blue with preset scenes, determine the best light intensity for growth and color and even create cloud effects if I want to all for about $250.00 in parts.
As far as the myths go.
1. LED's do produce heat, especially the High power LED's but the heat is radiated away from the tank rather than toward it which is why a good LED setup requires adequate heat sinks and cooling fans in order to dissipate the heat and prolong the life of the lamp.
2. It is not a myth that LED's will reduce the power bill. Maybe if the tank is in a particularly cold location the heater will have to run more but for most of us reducing the temp of the tank is more difficult than keeping it up. There is also additional savings in the cost of lamps. In a properly designed and cooled fixture lamp life can last 50,000 hours. But even at 1/2 that you're saving money. Say you have a 6 lamp 4' T5HO fixture and you change the bulbs annually. Even cheep bulbs will cost $100 per year with this fixture and for 25,000 hours of lamp life thats nearly $600.00
3. Color rendering is improving constantly with new Warm White, Red, Violet, and green High power LED's coming on the Market. Modular designs with solderless connections is making the replacement and customization of the available spectrum possible.
4. Penetration and Spotlighting. For shallow tanks up to 24" deep the high power LED's without optics will spread the light evenly over the tank if properly spaced. Terence runs a DIY Led on his 210 without optics and has great growth and penetration even at the bottom of the tank without optics. For deeper tanks closer spacing and the addition of optics will focus more light deeper in the tank and a combination of some optics and some without can provide an even distribution of light.
5. Changing Standards: How can improvements coming as quickly as 6 months be a bad thing? It's like computers sure in 6 months there will be a faster computer out there but I don't wait to buy one because of the immediate benefits of the current technology.
I have to agree that just because a light fixture is an LED doesn't mean it will perform the way you want it to. When purchasing or making an LED fixture you need to become educated and realize what you're buying but that's the same with any technology. Hybrid fixtures are another great option. Bottom line is LED's are a good thing and provide the hobbyist with more tools to design their own masterpiece.
Edited by bfessler - February 11 2011 at 2:51pm
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Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected]
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 3:22pm |
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Burt,
I'm sorry I came across pessimistic. That wasn't my intention. I didn't word some things the best.
I think LEDs have come a LONG way, really quick. I mean how long did it take until we had decent T5 fixtures to buy? That is one downfall of technology in this hobby. We are a very small group and we don't have HUGE companies to throw millions of dollars at something perfect a technology.
What I would like to see is a company create a very spectrum specific LED for our tanks. We have the blues covered. We need the fiji purple of LEDs. The one bulb that helps add some red but not overpower the tank.
I've seen a lot of people try red LEDs and they look hideous. They are so strong that even dimming them does nothing.
I've also seen people add in some warm whites and neutral whites to help bump the reds. This seems to work alright. Time will tell I guess.
For myself I just hate seeing people throw money around and when the item they bought doesn't work, the technology gets a bad reputation.
I've seen hundreds of people who are still convinced that T5 can't keep SPS. That halides are the ONLY lighting that can.
I've just seen too many myths going around about LEDs on both sides. People rave they keep any and every coral and others say they are total garbage.
I was hoping that article would help people understand the technology better. I shouldn't have added my own opinions into the equation.
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laynframe
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 8:09pm |
I think your nuts if you think MH and T5's will be around for awhile. Maybe led and t5 combos, but I think leds are going to be the next best thing. If you base your info on people complaining about their cheap fixtures and they say they fall short is crazy. Just like everything else in life you get what you pay for. You buy cheap then dont complain when its not up to par, and doesnt work. With leds your evaporation rate is cut almost in half. Your power consumption is usually half what t5's and MH are. At 140 watts of led power and par numbers superior to mh running 250 watts or more, is green to me. Dont get me wrong theres always room for improvement, but I beleive Mh and T5's are slowly going to fade out. Also in a quality led fixture your leds will run a lot longer than Mh bulbs needing to be changed out every 9 to 12 months at 120 a pop. Or T5 bulbs every 6-9 months at 25-35 a bulb and if your running sps,usually thats at least 6 bulb fixture, twice a year. How are you not saving any money with a quality led fixture with not having to buy bulbs all the time? Just my 2 cents
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The time we enjoy wasting isn't wasted time!!!!
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 10:51pm |
 laynframe wrote:
I think your nuts if you think MH and T5's will be around for awhile. Maybe led and t5 combos, but I think leds are going to be the next best thing. If you base your info on people complaining about their cheap fixtures and they say they fall short is crazy. Just like everything else in life you get what you pay for. You buy cheap then dont complain when its not up to par, and doesnt work. With leds your evaporation rate is cut almost in half. Your power consumption is usually half what t5's and MH are. At 140 watts of led power and par numbers superior to mh running 250 watts or more, is green to me. Dont get me wrong theres always room for improvement, but I beleive Mh and T5's are slowly going to fade out. Also in a quality led fixture your leds will run a lot longer than Mh bulbs needing to be changed out every 9 to 12 months at 120 a pop. Or T5 bulbs every 6-9 months at 25-35 a bulb and if your running sps,usually thats at least 6 bulb fixture, twice a year. How are you not saving any money with a quality led fixture with not having to buy bulbs all the time? Just my 2 cents |
LOL for the 5 years I have been in the hobby people have been saying that VHO and PC were going to fade out. Yet they are still around and being used. They might not be the "thing" anymore but plenty of people still use them with success. I don't know where you got the info that T5's need to be replaced every 6 months but they will last 12 months in most cases. If you aren't running an SPS heavy tank I would even stretch them out to 14-15 months. What MH bulbs were you buying that cost $120 each? Phoenix bulbs run around $55 and Radiums are $80. Those are the two MH I would run. Anyways, I will reiterate that I think LED's are good for the hobby and will be huge in the next 2 years. For now they have inherent flaws and are not proven to even last 50k hours. I don't care that CREE has gotten LED's to run 50k hours in a lab. Those are ideal conditions. Put LED's around our humid tanks and we are not sure how the components will last. I remember when T5's came out people claimed they would last at LEAST 2 years. We soon found that wasn't true and had to adapt. I think the same will be for LED's. If people get 25k hours out of the good ones that will be a good start. Like Burt said, the new solderless connections and other technologies coming out are making LED's very attractive. Now if price will just drop by about half. Then they will be in business. I mean LED's aren't new. They have been around for over 40 years. Just the way we are using them is "new". Like B
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bur01014
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 10:55pm |
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just a plug: the solderless holders are awesome...it made my DIY project a snap....well for me, since I have never soldered before....
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Chevmaro
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 11:07pm |
Have you guys ever seen a tank with Aquaillumination fixture? Looks amazing. I think the best combo is LED/T5 as you mentioned. You get the color control somewhat easy.
I'm not that opinionated one way or the other but I will say I have strongly considered the BOOST LED fixture and the fixture Reefkoi sells. I have also seen some awsome looking retro's with the rapidled kits.
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bfessler
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 1:00am |
The Aquailluminations fixtures are sweet and the Boost LED is a solid no frills LED fixture as well. I saw the Boost LED at Reefkoi's booth at Reef-A-Palooza last year. Nanotuners has also just come out with a sweet LED T5 combo fixture that's one of the nicest looking fixtures I've seen. Nanotuners also makes a sweet driver box with dual dimming channels.
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Burt An equal opportunity reefer, I support all hobbyists and organizations involved in Marine Aquarium Keeping. [email protected]
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laynframe
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 1:51pm |
I have 2 aquaillumination leds and love them. Ive also owned a evolution gen 2 from reefkoi and its a sub par fixture. Fans on the g2 ran 24/7 and they are really loud. The output on the gen 2 is better than 1 AI but the AI has sooo many other features its well worth the investment!
I never bought anything in the 14k spectrum never liked the color, most bulbs I buy are Elos 20k or xm's and yeah they are about 120 a piece. All the tanks Ive ever owned have been mostly sps. My favorite fixture was a ati t5 with 6or8 bulbs, but since ati over drives the bulbs I was changing bulbs every 6-9 months.
my 68 chevy would get me to work, but at 8 miles per gallon its not very efficient now is it? If its your thing to use older stuff and make it work, more power to ya!
Edited by laynframe - February 12 2011 at 1:58pm
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 2:39pm |
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ATI's do NOT overdrive bulbs. That is a fact. You were probably not cooling them enough or bought into the lies about replacing bulbs every 6 months. Now if you are using a sub par T5 fixture, yes they need to be replaced more often. With an ATI, 12 months is very easily obtained.
Man, where do you find your info????
I talk with the President of ATI, Oliver Pritzel multiple times a week through email and private message on RC. I know the whole story and myth of ATI's being overdriven. There was a small batch sent out without Oliver's permission. The employee who authorized the shipment was fired.
ATI's use Vossloh Scwhabe ballasts. The new ballasts might be branded ATI but they are the same internals as a Vossloh Schwabe.
I would rather have a 68 chevy than my 2011 Honda Civic any day of the week! Bad example to use there.
A crappy LED system is much more inefficient than a proper T5 setup. When the government performed their tests they were finding that something like 25% of the LED's on the market are garbage. Most lasted 2-5k hours with very few EVER reaching the full 50k hours they claim.
Again, I am not dissing LED's. I have used them and will use them in about a month on my new tank.
But they are NOT the end all in this hobby. New technology will come out to replace LED and even plasma. Welcome to the world we live in.
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laynframe
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 9:46pm |
Have you owned a ATI fixture? I had the Sun Power fixture, with all ATI bulbs, loved it too. I can tell you when I replaced the bulbs at 6 months i would have to move the corals down because they would bleach out, then slowly move them back up. So I can tell ya first hand the bulbs fade at 6 months. I actually have a ballast from ATI that is a "replacement" from ATI and it says High-Tech Electronic Products is the only name on it.Bless your heart Ryan, we will agree to disagree  . Ill bow out now lol. BTW the par 38 leds are awsome good luck with your tank!
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The time we enjoy wasting isn't wasted time!!!!
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vadryn
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 10:45pm |
If the LED fixtures would come down in price, their market share would skyrocket. I'd be all over it. Less heat and less power consumption for the same light output = no brainer for SW. The fine tuning of color etc would happen almost overnight if they'd just price the average reef keeper into the market.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the back rooms they were doing their pricing like:
Incandecent bulb costs $2 and lasts 2000 hours.
LED bulb lasts 25x as long, so we need to charge ~ $25x as much, regardless that producing the LED costs a fraction of that.
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bur01014
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 11:00pm |
laynframe wrote:
I can tell you when I replaced the bulbs at 6 months i would have to move the corals down because they would bleach out, then slowly move them back up. |
I am trying to understand why you changed the bulbs out every 6 months? Is a 10% loss in intensity going to happen? Sure....but why change the bulbs out every six just to bleach your corals...confused on that one....12 months per bulb is just fine, you won't lose growth or color of corals...500 Par vs 450 Par after 6 months is not a big deal.....in fact less is more in some cases....hence the common bleaching You are the only person out of hours of research that I have done to recommends bulb replacements at 6 months....I am not trying to produce any type of argument, but the consensus is 12 months change out and you're just fine....no need to give ATI or any other T5 bulb producer more profit...
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Josh95
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Posted: February 12 2011 at 11:24pm |
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No comment. I love my LEDs over my pico.
they are brighter and have better coloration of my coral then under PCs.
BTW I am looking for a good place to buy 1 cree XP-E green LED.
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sunflashx
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Posted: February 14 2011 at 1:16pm |
Looking at the HM-80 report like the DOE document suggests, the CREE lamps that are commonly used are lasting 6000 hours with 98% ish rate of lumen maintenance depending on model. That's a bare minimum lifespan of 2 years or so as per the governments standard measurement system. In that time you'd end up replacing a lamp or two? http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/LM-80_Results.pdf Aesthetically Neutral White seems to be the winner (in my opinion), but produces less par. Cool white is the par champ, once corals are acclimated to the level of light they seem to respond very well, it's just the guy on the outside that isn't satisfied. 
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 11:20am |
So another thing I just wanted to mention was this whole "myth" of "never changing bulbs".
Sure LED's can last for 10 years, but will the hobbyist?
I mean in 5 years I have had 4 or 5 tanks. All of them got bigger until this last one I am doing. If you were to get the modular LED's then it is very easy to add and subtract modules but I would assume with a DIY, you would have to go through the hassle of tearing the whole thing apart to cut, chop, screw and anything else you do to build a fixture.
The statistics show that hobbyists last 3 years in our hobby. Meaning that the LED's should hypothetically out last the majority of hobbyists and will certainly outlast any tank.
Again, I am not ripping on LED's although some of you think I am. I got my PAR30 bulb the other day and the tank just arrived. Now I need to see if CeramEco will build me a cool rock structure and I need to have my ReefKeeper Lite sent in for work.
I love the little PAR bulb and it makes everything look super sexy and simple. No bulky fixture sitting on top of my rimless cube.
Just some food for thought  |
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thefu
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 3:53pm |
I have run a 36 LED DIY fixture controlled by my Apex for about 8 months now. My corals love it and they look great. It was my alpha test over the center of my 210. Now I will go to beta testing with the other two fixtures with a change to XP LED instead of a mix of XP-G and XR-E. I am also changing over some of the Royal Blue to the Blues so there will be a three color mix now.
If the beta succeeds, then I will go back and retrofit the alpha with the blue and royal blue XP LED to match the betas.
I do still supplement my LED with VHO. Why, I don't know exactly, but if there is any merit to the arguments about the need for UV, I figure I have it covered with those.
BTW, if you want to learn more about LED in addition to the great resources on sites like nanotuners, I hear that a particular reefkeeping expert will be speaking on the topic this week in SLC  |
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laynframe
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Posted: February 19 2011 at 4:25pm |
Just found this I guess im not the only one, makes me feel better lol! T5 bulbs and the life span
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Chad
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Posted: February 19 2011 at 6:57pm |
Ryan Thompson wrote:
Burt,
I think LEDs have come a LONG way, really quick. I mean how long did it take until we had decent T5 fixtures to buy? That is one downfall of technology in this hobby. We are a very small group and we don't have HUGE companies to throw millions of dollars at something perfect a technology.
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This quote kinda made me chuckle because Led's have been used and available in the Marine aquarium industry longer then T5 HO's but they were too expensive to be an option for most hobbyists. I don't think LED's will necessary make it so that Metal Halides and other lights will not be used on reef tanks anymore but I think they will be the new standard until another better technology comes a long. It's funny because I remember when a lot of the same arguments were being made about weather or not metal halides would ever really be that popular because they were so expensive and now look at them. Well here we go with round 2 this time the topic is LED's.
I am really happy with my LED's not to say that means anything one way or the other on what a lot of you are discussing here but if anyone ever wants to come see my fixtures and pick my brains on them feel free to come by.
Chad.
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What?! You pooped in the refrigerator, and ate the entire wheel of cheese?! I'm not even mad.... That's actually amazing!
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