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Official Bacterial Driven Thread

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badfinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2010 at 9:53am
So when doing a waterchange.... should you do your waterchange before or after you dose bacteria/vodka?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2010 at 10:11am

I do it before. Ive been doing 10% weekly waterchanges. Something kind of interesting is that on waterchange day, which is usually saturday, the 5 gallons of new saltwater will cause small bacterial blooms (the small stringy strands coming off the rocks) even though I am at the low nutrient dosage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2010 at 9:20am
Definite proof that new saltwater adds nutrients needed for bacteria and algae growth.
As I understand it, the purpose of an ULNS (ultra low nutrient system) is to more closely duplicate the natural reef.
 
I don't know your tank but 10% weekly water changes is crazy talk. Smile If only for the hassle factor.
In common situations water changes are meant to remove all the different kinds of pollutants and 10%/month is sufficient for that purpose. AC does the rest.
Please help me understand the benefit of frequent water changes when nutrients and pollutants are already low?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2010 at 10:03am
Im just doing what Sonny recommends.
 
Originally posted by Nick801 Nick801 wrote:

^ from one of those articles linked above this is quoted:

"I always recommend performing weekly or bi-weekly water changes of 10 to 20%, respectively. It seems very reasonable to assume that such regular water changes should be maintained if vodka supplementation is instituted. "

so still plan on doing water changes Jeff
 
I dont have a huge tank, so to do a 10% water change once a week is just one 5 gallon bucket, and takes about 5 minutes. I wouldnt say its crazy talk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2010 at 11:21am
It's crazy to me.
I set up a tanks to require minimum maintenance and maximum enjoyment.
10% every 1-3 months is all it takes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2010 at 12:38pm
I too have seen the white, stringy stuff after water changes.  Not much, just a little here and there, and it's gone within a day.  It's the only time I ever see it.
 
My understanding is that smaller and more frequent water changes are more about replacing depleted trace elements than for removing organic wastes...especially when running AC and a skimmer.
 
I'm personally doing 15% every 3 - 4 weeks and it seems to be going well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2010 at 11:02pm
maybe this was already answered but why the dosing method better than using pellets in a reactor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2010 at 4:35pm
It's all still speculation at this early point in the game, but the pellet drawbacks I've read about from others' experiences are that it's easier to overdose the pellets as opposed to liquid carbon sources.  Liquid carbon sources can immediately be fine tuned, as opposed to pellet which require opening the reactor and dumping or adding pellets.  People are also having a hard time getting their reactors to produce enough flow to make them fully tumble, otherwise they tend to clump together and clog the flow.  One other theory is that they keep the bacterial colonization limited only to the area of the reactor as opposed to everywhere else in the system with liquid forms (live rock, substrate, water column, etc).  With liquid sources, the carbon source is introduced into the water column allowing it to penetrate everywhere and for bacteria to colonize in myriad locations.  Supposedly this makes the bacteria a more available food source to all inhabitants.
 
Again, this is all heresay and speculation.  I think it will take a few more years of shared experiences and study before we have a better understanding of the processes that are really taking place.  Just like the whole LED thing, there will be constant changes and adjustments for many moons to come.


Edited by jcom - November 28 2010 at 4:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2010 at 4:57pm

Thanks for the informative reply.  The reason the pellets appealed to me was because they are more a set it/forget it way to have a carbon source.  It does make sense that having bacterial colonization everywhere in the tank woud work better than just in the reactor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:01pm
ok, so I have been reading up on this method.  And so far this is the best explination of how it works:


Heterotrophic bacteria, in contrast to photosynthetic autotrophic bacteria, must assimilate organic carbon as a food source from the surrounding water, in addition to nitrogen and phosphorus sources, in order for cellular metabolism to occur. As a result of the growth of these organisms, complex microbial communities, called biofilms, are formed. Sources of nitrogen, in the form of nitrate ions, and phosphorous, in the form of phosphate, are readily bioavailable to these bacteria in most marine aquaria. Although subject to some dispute, it is recognized by many aquarists that reef aquaria may be carbon limited, at least in terms of types of organic carbon that are easily utilized by heterotrophic bacteria.

It follows, then, that by increasing the amount of appropriate DOC, we can encourage heterotrophic bacteria to reproduce more quickly as the carbon limitation has been removed, thus allowing a net increase in their biomass.

Stated differently, we provide the missing carbon that will allow heterotrophic bacteria to thrive, reproduce, and build structures, and in doing so, uptake nitrate and phosphate from the water column and substrate (in addition to the dosed carbon source), thereby sequestering these dissolved nutrients from the system. These organisms increase in biomass, having “locked up” dissolved nitrate and phosphate as they live and grow. Some of this bacterial biomass is subsequently removed via foam fractionization (protein skimming), or consumed by invertebrates or other microbial organisms in the aquarium. Also, the added biomass allows a significant increase in the net metabolism associated with these bacteria, including the ultimate mineralization of some dissolved nutrients into inorganic—and less problematic—forms.




But I do have a question.... What kind of carbon is utalized by bacteria?  I know vodka, vinigar, and sugar, but does GAC work as well, or is it not readily available for the bacteria?  I guess it needs to be dissolved organic carbon, so I am guessing GAC does not work the same or does it?.... But then I wouldn't really consider the solid polymer (pellets) dissolved...


Edited by Davidwillis - December 01 2010 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2010 at 9:55pm
You are correct AC does not serve as a proper carbon source because it is not a dissolved source of carbon. The chemical structure of the carbon present in sugar, vinegar and vodka is very different from that of AC which is actually made from charcoal or anthracite coal.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2010 at 1:13pm
Here is 8 months growth in my tank (March - November).  However, I was getting VERY LITTLE growth in my tank until I started probiotics (October),  I would guess that anywhere from 50 - 80% of the growth, depending on the coral, is since I started a probiotics ULNS.
 
March 2010:
 
 
November 2010:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2010 at 2:12pm

Wow! Very nice Jake. Thumbs UpThumbs Up



Edited by Jeffs_little_ocean - December 04 2010 at 11:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2011 at 9:22pm
A few people have asked me about vodka dosing, so I figured I'd bump this thread with a pic update:
 
Sept 2011:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2011 at 9:36pm
Looks great man! 

P.S. can't wait to pick up that frag!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chk4tix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2011 at 9:34pm
Nice progression pictures. I am getting ready to try vodka/mb7 dosing, just waiting on my mb7 to show up in a day or so. I hope I can have half as good as results as I have seen while I have been resurching this. I am really can't wait to get going, my tank really could use the help (I just tested my phosphates and they are outrageous )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uh60chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 7:25pm
 
Thought this was a good read for those looking into this type of system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chk4tix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 5:40pm
Ok I am back for a little advice before I go crazy. I began dosing vodka shortly after my above post. The it was about 4 weeks before my p04 began to drop. It dropped from 1.00 to .59 ppm (Tested with a Hanna meter) in about 3 weeks after I found my dosing level. However since that time my p04 has not dropped at all and has actually increased slightly to .69ppm over the last 2weeks. Does this mean that I need to increase my dosing? Has anyone else had this happen? I have had nothing but problems with my tank for over a year now and I am about at my last straw. The "fun" has been replaced with constant headaches
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 7:27pm
Yes, you need increase your vodka amount for a little bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arthuriv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2011 at 3:55pm
First a disclosure "I haven't read all the way through this thread yet!"

But is dosing Vodka better then dosing vinegar?
How often do you dose?
I mix the vinegar with Kalk 3:1 ratio and slowly have it drip into my sump at night.
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