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Acrid 
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 Topic: Liverock die-off?
Posted: June 01 2008 at 2:47am |
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Hi,
I have a few questions regarding live rock die-off. A few weeks ago, I bought a few pieces of liverock. Since I didn't want to rearrange my rockwork right then, I stuck them in my empty quarantine tank. A few days later we bought a tang and put him in the QT. He of course had ich. So upon buying more rock today, I boiled some water and poured it over the rocks in a bucket, to kill the ick and any other unwanted guests.
My question is, will there be lots of ammonia or whatever if I put these in my tank now? There is already probably 60lbs of liverock in my tank now. I am just worried there could be lots of die-off on the new rock and that it could mess up my water quality. I could clean out my QT and put them in there to cycle if necessary.
Side note, what do I need to do as far as cleaning my now-empty quarantine tank since it had ich in it? Bleach? Let it dry out for a few days and re-cycle it?
Thanks for your help!
- Dana
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90g Reef
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Mike Savage
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Posted: June 01 2008 at 2:29pm |
The amonia will come mostly from die off of things you can see on the rock. Is the outside of the rock pretty clean or does it have a lot of dead stuff? Does the water smell clean or like amonia?
Mike
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Acrid
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Posted: June 01 2008 at 2:34pm |
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The rock was "cured" from Marine Aquatics. I did scrub some dark algae and sponge-matter off the rocks before boiling them. Other than that, there is nothing really that I can see. The rock doesn't smell like ammonia. One I got last week but exposed it to ich, the other one I got yesterday.
I just don't want to start a spike, better safe than sorry.
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90g Reef
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Mike Savage
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Posted: June 01 2008 at 2:43pm |
One or two pieces of "UNcured" live rock are usually no problem when put in a well established tank with live rock. It sounds like you will be fine adding this "mostly cured" rock to your existing system.
Mike
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: June 02 2008 at 11:12am |
Boiling water!! 
Would anyone care to tell Acrid why that's completetly the wrong thing to do. Where did Acrid hear that method?
To kill ich. Goodness 
I've gotta leave this to others. I may not be patient enough to explain this. Mike, could you take over here?
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Jeff Morrill
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Posted: June 02 2008 at 11:47am |
Ich will die without a host. It is the fish in the system that carry the ich. When they hatch, they fall off the fish and go to the substrate or on the rock. The fish in turn pick them back up by grazing for scraps among the rock and substrate. And from the water colum its self.
The rock cure method without having any live fish in the system would but good enough to rid ich.
" Cooking rock" Isnt exatly cooking it . You remove the live rock to a seprate container , mix New Salt Water, A heater,A powerhead And soak. The trick is no light For 4-6 weeks.
I say this now cuz i kinda felt like Boiling water, for whatever reason just kills all the good things the rock has to offer your reef tank.
And in my opinion, This rock will have to cycle all over.
Edited by Jeff Morrill - June 02 2008 at 11:48am
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WHAT KINDA GUM????... Give em 2 sticks.
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pa_reptileman_4
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Posted: June 02 2008 at 12:14pm |
yes it will cycle again but 2 rocks in a 65 gal tank with 60 lbs of good lr will do nothing. you may notice a little algea growing on the rocks but nothing to be worried about.
once again ich will die after 6 weeks with no host in a system. but by dumping the boiling water on there you just made live rock dead rock, you could have done the same if you would have taken it out and let it dry out and then sit there for a few weeks. same thing you just did it faster. not a big deal you just have to wait for it to cure again.
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pitiful guppy tank.
shane
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Acrid
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Posted: June 02 2008 at 1:39pm |
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Yes, I know ich would die without fish in six weeks. But I don't really want to wait 6 weeks to add rock to my tank. And I know that boiling water killed off the good bacteria, and that it is now effectively "dead rock." But I have plenty of live rock now, and I don't mind waiting for this rock to "re-seed" in my tank while it becomes live again. I was just looking for more interesting-looking rock to add to my existing rockwork, I would have bought cool "dead rock" if any was available anywhere.
I've heard of multiple people who do this same thing whenever they add rock to their tank so they know they aren't adding anything bad. I don't want anymore bristle worms, or to risk bad crabs, of any other unwelcome hitchhikers. I really don't see why this is so appalling that someone couldn't even respond, when that really wasn't even related to what I had asked in the first place. I can see how this would have been a bad thing to do if I was just starting my tank and needed liverock to cycle, but I don't. I have probably 75-80lbs of liverock in my 65g. So perhaps someone could tell me why this is so terribly wrong. It killed the good bacteria. I know that. So what?
So thank you Mike, who actually answered my question.
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90g Reef
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thathiep
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Posted: June 02 2008 at 3:40pm |
If you're risking all the unwanted stuffs on the new LR, why not using Utah rocks that is "dead rock" and free. Just a thought.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 1:33pm |
Okay, I can see your point, but I don't agree with it.
The Ich parasite in it's planktonic stage can come back into the tank via any minute drop of water from another tank. It will also come in on fish. If you think your tank doesn't have any Ich, just stress out the tank for a week or two and watch your fish get Ich. Ich can come on anytime but a good healthy environment utilizing the techniques we in the WMAS espouse is the best way to avoid it getting out of control. Then there is Garlic Oil. Garlic Oil is almost a miracle cure. After more than a decade of being intensely involved in this hobby Garlic Oil came upon the scene. I now use it to prevent Ich as a monthly preventive and for a week after adding a new fish, where in the past I would have simply lost most of my fish to an outbreak of Ich. 
Edited by Mark Peterson - June 03 2008 at 2:58pm
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 1:56pm |
I'm kind of with Mark on this one. Boiling rock to kill ich seems like a very unorthodox and illogical idea.... and yes that is even coming from me 
Adam
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Acrid
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 8:46pm |
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That still doesn't address the countless other undesirable hitchhikers though. Just yesterday I noticed some white polyp-y looking blobs growing on the acrylic walls of my sump. I don't know what they are, but I think I would probably rather not have them. Or what about worms, crabs, or all the other things that can get into your tank via rock? I don't understand the focus on ich with this, it was a miniscule part of the question, and even then, indirectly. No one has even addressed my question about cleaning the glass from my QT.
Let me ask this, what is the harm in boiling rock before adding it to my tank? Yes, it will kill the good bacteria. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE? Because like I said, I have a pretty good amount of liverock in my tank already, I can wait for this rock to re-seed with bacteria.
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Mike Savage
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 9:03pm |
The only harm in boiling the rock is it turns it from live rock to dead rock. Yes it kill most if not all of the desirable organisms but it also does the same for the undesirable organisms. The only harm I see is the rock may look more white and sterile than the other rocks for a few months.
Mike
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Acrid
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 9:13pm |
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That is what I thought. So I still do not see the harm in doing this, I just think it would be better to be safe than sorry. They didn't have coraline growing on them to begin with, they are as white now as they were when purchased.
Thanks for all the responses that were CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, even though I may not agree with it. There's nothing wrong with expressing opinions.
Thanks again Mike, for your quick answers to my many questions!
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90g Reef
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 9:33pm |
Okay, I'll take you on...
"countless other hitchhikers"
Aiptasia, rock crabs, Bryopsis and maybe bubble algae are the only undesirables I can think of and we know how to rid those in the tank without having to kill the entire LR.
"worms"
Of the thousands of species of marine worms, perhaps 1 in a thousand is harmful. So your point in boiling rock to rid it of worms is killing 1000 good to get at the one chance possibility of getting one of the bad worms. And if we find one of those bad ones, it can be removed in various ways that rarely require removal of the rock.
"white polyp-y looking blobs"
Those are probably sponge, sea squirt, or other creature. Very, very desirable.
"harm in boiling rock"
It's not exactly that there is any harm to it. But I believe the main question we all may be asking is "Why?"
After all, the value of LR is all the variety of life that it harbors. This hobby was uninteresting and didn't go too far when the hobbyists monthly duty was to bleach dead coral skeletons. I have said many times on this message board that 99.9% of life we see in our tanks is good, and the more variety in our tanks the better. I buy uncured LR and let it grow. It's nice to see how vibrant, how beautiful and how full of life the aquarium can be when the LR comes straight from the ocean to my tank. It's amazing how much cool stuff starts growing and how much fun it is to watch the different organisms come and go. I guess after saying this, the harm I see is in killing life. It's a shame to kill all the good when all you have to do is let it grow and pick out the bad.
The other real harm I can see in killing LR and then placing it in a tank is, like you said, the pollution which will come as a result of the decomposing organic matter that will have to be eaten by the tanks current residents. In comparison to the uncured LR that I use, the N compounds from your boiled LR will be no big deal and the bigger the envirnment it goes into the more easily the current envirnment can deal with the pollution, so go ahead and place it in your main tank.
I respect your opinion and I don't mean to offend, but I believe that you could really benefit from a rethinking of how to do a reef aquarium.
This is my 2 cents 
Edited by Mark Peterson - June 03 2008 at 9:55pm
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 9:40pm |
 Acrid wrote:
...they are as white now as they were when purchased. |
How much do you pay for white rock? Do you consider that LR? If to you that is LR, then everything I said above is moot. Go ahead - boil it till the water's gone. What can it hurt. You're right. It can't hurt nothin' cause there was nothin on it to begin with  . In my experience that rock is no better and sometimes worse than cleaned sterile Utah Rock. And Utah Rock is practically free.
Would you like to show off your tank? May we see a pic?
Edited by Mark Peterson - June 03 2008 at 9:50pm
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trplxj
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 9:59pm |
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I can't see why anyone would pay for live rock from the LFS and them boil it or pour boiling water over it and kill eveything good about the live rock. When you can get Utah rock for almost free. I started my tank with 30 lbs of Utah rock that I got out of the ground and 5 lbs of good quality rock for the LFS. That was full of all kinds of hitchhikers. In my opinion all you did was waste your money. 5 bucks plus a pound versus a little sweat......I'll take the sweat.
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BobC63
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 10:24pm |
trplxj wrote:
I can't see why anyone would pay for live rock from the LFS and them boil it or pour boiling water over it and kill eveything good about the live rock. When you can get Utah rock for almost free. I started my tank with 30 lbs of Utah rock that I got out of the ground and 5 lbs of good quality rock for the LFS. That was full of all kinds of hitchhikers. In my opinion all you did was waste your money. 5 bucks plus a pound versus a little sweat......I'll take the sweat. |
As a LBTR "convert" I would have to agree...
Why, OH WHY would anyone who lives within 100 miles of the LBTR collection sites EVER buy "live" rock in any quantity is just beyond me...
My last rock run I hauled off over 500 LBS of LBTR in my little SUV. 500 pounds. 5 totes worth of rock...
Total cost to me was around $25 for the gas (round trip) and a total of 4.5 hours of my time... oh, and about $7 worth of tokens at the local car wash to pressure wash the LBTR.
The last time I bought live rock was a single 8 lb rock from a LFS @ $6.99 / lb.
So that single 8 lb rock at the LFS cost me over 50 bucks... vs. 500 lbs of rock I spent $32 on.
Oh, and I ended up using only about 200 lbs of the LBTR and sold the rest at $0.25 / lb.
Which means I spent $32 for the LBTR and earned (by selling the leftover 300 lbs) $75 off of my trip. Or a net gain of 200 lbs of rock for my tank AND $40 plus in my wallet after expenses...
And, 6 months from now, no one will be able to tell the difference between the LBTR and the other live rock anyway...
Edited by carlso63 - June 03 2008 at 10:41pm
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: June 03 2008 at 10:30pm |
I didn't read all the posts above but I'll just add a thought (which may have been said)
The purpose of live rock is most definitely NOT bacteria. Heck you can use legos for bacteria and surface area. The reason to buy live rock is to get all the worms, tunicates, sponges, shrimp, algae, and everything else that makes a reef tank "alive"
Adam
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Acrid
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Posted: June 04 2008 at 1:35am |
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Ok, well I just wrote up a reply to all this but the website logs me out after about a minute of inactivity so I lost it.
Summary:
Going to get Utah rock seems like a hassle to me. It's not like I don't spend more time than I'd like on my tanks and their assorted projects as it is. I would rather drive 5 minutes and pay a few bucks to buy some rock. If stores had nice looking dead rock, I would buy it. They don't, for the most part. As much as I hate the phrase "time is money," it is true and I'd rather spend my free time else ware than the desert by myself.
I have never spent even close to $8 a lb for liverock. And I have never seen liverock at any of the local stores that wasn't white, unless it was dead matter, or sick algae or sponge matter that even multiple store employees said to scrub off. Nor have I ever really got any interesting hitchhikers. I've got some mini brittle stars and copepods. I've also had a lot of aiptasia and mojano, hydroid jellyfish, and a starfish that may or may not eat my coral.
Thanks for sharing your opinions. Please don't flame me for disagreeing with them.
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90g Reef
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