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Dion Richins 
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 Posted: April 02 2008 at 1:54pm |
 chris.rogers wrote:
But I don't want to get made fun of...  |
To late.................... 
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chris.rogers
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 4:09pm |
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So for those who favor DSBs, what do you say to the claim that in the long term they eventually are bad for the tank?
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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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cl2ysta1
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 4:42pm |
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I think they need to be completely stirred every few weeks to keep from coming a danger. You cant just let them sit for a year and never stir them. thats just my opinion though.
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I <3 Boxers
Achilles tang lover
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 4:49pm |
chris.rogers wrote:
Jake,
What do you mean by a 'healthy sand bed'? Do you mean clean?
| If you really want a plenum then do it. I see no harm. |
But I don't want to get made fun of... |
Not necessarily clean. A healthy sand bed would be considered one with a good fauna population (worm, pods, etc.). This is important for both dsbs and plenums IMO. This helps eat left over organics and keeps the bed fluid.
Oh, and DSBs crashing tanks are pure conjecture.
Edited by Jake Pehrson - April 02 2008 at 4:50pm
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jonafriendj
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 5:08pm |
FWIW
Mark Peterson wrote:
I agree with Mike. The sand bed doesn't need this for a few years... but, anytime in it's life if you simply create a little storm now and then it will do a lot of good. Poke a stick or your hand into a small portion of the LS, swirl it around to create a dust cloud. Your coral will love you for the meal. Stir it shallow - stir it deep - get a feel for how much detritus is hanging in the sand. This cloud of stuff should be yellowish, brownish, grayish in color. It is chock full of bacteria which feeds a multitude of invertebrate organisms from Acropora to Sponge to Zooanthids.
Oh and don't worry about rotten egg gas/Hydrogen Sulfide/ H2S. The hobby creates nothing but unfounded fear in this natural and necessary process that exists in LS and in the deeper regions of LR. I have experienced this phenomena only once and it was a special freshwater aquarium, not in a reef aquarium. It's a rare occurance that we need not worry about, unless we are disturbing an entire deep sand bed all at once without removing the rest of the livestock first. |
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MadReefer
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 5:10pm |
I read that fine sand is used so gunk can't build up in the sand. I also read that you should only stir, at the most, the top inch of a sand.
So if you had problems with gunk build up, try a fine type of sand. I thought the Utah oolite was very fine so it should work well.
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 10:29pm |
cl2ysta1 wrote:
1) french are wussies. they've lost like every war
2)you probably dont even speak french?
3)It is more than just a shallow layer of sand. It screen, and eggcrate, and pvc, AND sand... sounds like a pain to me
4) shallow sand beds work just as well, and numerous people have gone without them
5)Plenum isnt really that fun to say. there isnt even an internet abbreviation for it... PNM?
6)The sand is only deep enough for them to hit a screen.
but anyway. I don't know anyone who has had a plenum for more than 5 years |
If we ever meet I'll introduce myself and then you'll know someone who has ran a plenumed tank for over 11 years w/o incident - only took it down when we moved to UT 
4) ... DSBs work "almost as well" (except for that nasty "compaction" issue everyone keeps avoiding  - SSBs do nothing for nitrate reduction. Nothing.
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 10:32pm |
Holdencraft 33 wrote:
unixnum1 wrote:
I started out with one many a year ago and finally got rid of it because of all the issues I had with it.
All of the tanks detritus (I much prefer this word) ok, crap, ended up in the sand that I had to constantly clean.
I much prefer to just stir the sand once in a while and let it feed my corals.
My anenome didn't like it either. with a nice smooth glass bottom, he just sucks down to the glass.
With the plenum, he didn't like the feel.
However, this is all IMO. 
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Exactally....I had one of these far inferior systems and hated it for its looks as much as its looks. (It looks like a French thing).DSB work better IMO but to each there own.
Scott and Bob will tell you that its a far better system but I think Aliens have gotten to them.
Crystal, He does speak French! |
Elaborate on the whole "hated the looks" thing, please... If done properly, you don't actually "see" anything other than sand...
P.S. The Aliens offered me candy; I was helpless after that!
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 10:48pm |
Jake Pehrson wrote:
1.) Dr. Jean Jaubert, a French guy, came up with the idea. (I like French things. )
I like French fries and French toast, but I still don't want a plenum.
2.) No recharge needed.
IMHO there is no difference between a healthy deep sand bed and one with a plenum. It is a waste of space.
3.) More than just a shallow layer of sand.
Don't use a shallow layer of sand. Use a deep sand bed.
4.) I can show it off. "Yeah, I did a plenum. What's a plenum, you say? Well, let me
tell you..."
Only a true fish geek would care to see your plenum, and then 3/4 of them will make fun of you for it.
5.) "Plenum" is fun to say.
It is fun to say, but it is funnier to say when you are making fun of people that have them.
6.) I can still have sand deep enough for sand sifting gobies and other gobies who dig.
You can do the same thing with a deep sand bed (I have had engineer gobies in my tanks for the last 9 years), but I don't recommend sand sifter gobies for a DSB or a plenum. They bury your corals and seem to just cause havoc.
A couple of points:
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I have seen many tanks with plenums and some of them are amazing, but I don't think the plenum had anything to do with it.
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6 or 7 years ago I was convinced that a plenum was the way to go. I am now convinced they are a waste of space.
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A deep sand bed is just as effective as a plenum, it's like putting a golf ball in your aquarium. If you want one go ahead, it won't hurt anything, but it won't help either.
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What real benefits do you get from running a plenum vs. a deep sand bed.
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If you do decide to install a plenum I would put it in your sump if possible.
(Reason for editing: Removed numerous references to the French and surrendering.) |
If you want to see the REAL BENEFITS of running w/ a plenum vs. a DSB, run - don't walk - to your nearest LFS and get a copy of the 2008 Marine Aquarium & Reefkeeping Annual ; there is an extensive article on the exact subject. They analized the sandbeds of several large Reefs at the Waikiki Aquarium in Hawaii - some plenumed, some not.
EVERY DSB sandbed chemical analysis showed evidence of particulate compaction, anoxic (zero available oxygen) conditions, and HS2 formation... not some, every.
NONE of the plenumed Reefs analysis showed any of the above issues... not a few, not one, none.
You see, a DSB CAN become compacted, anoxic, HS2 - prone....
CAN. Note taht I didn't say WILL, or ALWAYS WILL - although the article says ALWAYS WILL )
A plenumed sandbed CANNOT. EVER.
And THAT is a "difference", no matter what you call it 
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:03pm |
OK, too many other posts to reply singularly (I am supposed to be working, you know )
I apologize if I skipped over anyone
I don't agree that a DSB is "just as good" or that a plenumed tank "needs to be stirred / vaccummed / "recharged" just like a DSB..." In a plenumed tank the water flow through the sand to and from the plenum space accomplishes the same thing without you having to do anything. With a DSB you need to provide manual movement of the sandbed; whether through 'stirring and vacumming' or 'replenishing the benthic infauna' from time to time so that those organisms can "unclog" the sandbed for you. If you neglect your DSB "maintenance" you will get that unpleasant HS2 and pO4 "surprise" that Jake pointed out "occurs naturally " And it does... in the ocean. So - as long as you have a mutli - billion gallon tank to dilute the "natural" effects (similar to the way the ocean does it) - no worries, right? 
That same space provides just enough O2 to avoid the anoxic conditions that can occur in a DSB situation but cannot occur in a plenumed environment
And... The entire argument between a plenum vs. BB, "which is better?" isn't an "argument" at all because they are radically different approaches to water quality management. You can't manage a plenumed tank like you do a BB, and vice versa...Whichever one you prefer is just that; a preference. (For that matter, comparing a BB to a DSB is like comparing an airplane to a car; they both move people but do it so differently there is really no common area for comparison there, either)
Edited by carlso63 - April 02 2008 at 11:04pm
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Will Spencer
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:07pm |
I don't have time for a long reply, but...
...I don't agree that anaerobic zones are bad just because they don't have any O2.
edited for spelling.
Edited by Will Spencer - April 02 2008 at 11:10pm
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:08pm |
BTW, Chris...
Welcome to the Dark Side of Reefkeeping...
Scott and I have prepared a room for you... you just gotta drink this little drink first.... OK ???
1 member down; only a few hundred to go
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:09pm |
Will Spencer wrote:
I don't have time for a long reply, but...
...I don't agree that anerobic zones are bad just because they don't have any O2. |
Not anaerobic, Will... anoxic
That's the bad one
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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jfinch
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:09pm |
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Carlos, you got a copy of that article? Anyone else have a copy? I'd love to read it.
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:10pm |
chris.rogers wrote:
So for those who favor DSBs, what do you say to the claim that in the long term they eventually are bad for the tank? |
To be fair, I don't believe that either.
But you have to do some "maintance" on your DSB to avoid that problem
You don't with a plenumed tank
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:13pm |
jfinch wrote:
Carlos, you got a copy of that article? Anyone else have a copy? I'd love to read it.
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I should still have the magazine in my "reading section" of the latrine
I'll look tomorrow (I'm at work now)
P.S. last time I was in AF Petsmart they still had copies of the mag - there is a closeup of a seahorse on the cover
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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jfinch
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:13pm |
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Why would diffusion occur any better in a plenumed tank over a non-plenumed tank with the same thickness and type of sand?
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jfinch
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:15pm |
carlso63 wrote:
I should still have the magazine in my "reading section" of the latrine
I'll look tomorrow (I'm at work now)
P.S. last time I was in AF Petsmart they still had copies of the mag - there is a closeup of a seahorse on the cover
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I'll try to remember to stop by Petsmart tomorrow after work.
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Will Spencer
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:16pm |
Finch, he told you where to get it. Run, don't walk, to your LFS. Or are you just too cheap? (You know I'm just kidding, but if you come to the meeting tomorrow you can try to kick my butt anyway if you like.  )
Carlso63. I don't agree that anoxic is bad either. According to Wikipedia...
"Anaerobic is a technical word which literally means without air (where "air" is generally used to mean oxygen), as opposed to aerobic.
In wastewater treatment the absence of oxygen is indicated as anoxic."
This says nothing about anoxic always being a bad thing. I guarantee I have zones in my tanks that contain HS2. I've never seen any problems from them.
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BobC63
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Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:18pm |
It's all about the flow, baby!
As slow as it is, water flows through the sand to and from the plenum void...
in a DSB, water can move around somewhat (sort of like "capillary action", I guess) and O2 diffuses through by the same action but cannot flow through the DSB sandbed becasue there is no water "space" one side of the sandbed - only above it.
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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