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Capabilities of Kalkwasser

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Marcus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 11:43am
Big evaporation is not so bad if you wish to add more Kalkwasser top-off water. But if you do not own an R/O unit, then five gallons a day is quite a burden.

Travis, thanks for the input on the reactor flows. I think the bubble rate of 10 bubbles per minutes is too slow. I am tuning in a friend's reactor now and we've got it to about 2 dripps per second and 2 bubbles per second. The pH went from 7.99 to 8.22 in 24 hours. THe pH of the effluent is about 6.5. But reactors are very touchy in the beginning so you really have to keep an eye on them. In perfect world, I would like to see the pH stay between 8.2-8.4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djangoboots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 2:32pm
Jon,
I have some kalk?? I have a 125 with no corals (yet) a little live rock
and a lot of dead rock (soon to be alive). I decided to run kalk for a
few reasons. 1st. my pH kept dropping and super buffer wasn't
doing the trick anymore. 2nd to encorage more coralline algae and
halemida growth and 3rd to try and get some of these darn
phophates out of my tank (current level @ 1mg/l but i can't get it
any lower). So i have added ~1g kalk per night for 4 nights and there
was no change in the amnt. of Ca (according to the sera test kit i
have) so on the 5th day i let the kalk run into the day (i also left my
refug. lights on since it is new and i'm trying to get those macros to
grow). About 7-6 hrs into the light cycle of the main tank my pH was
@ 8.6!! wow, so i pulled the kalk & shut off the refug. lights. I set the
kalk back up when the main lights went off, and pH this morn was
8.3. But still no increase in [Ca]. So i am wondering; a. my test kit is
crap or b. somehow all the Ca i am adding is getting used (by what).
Either way i think i need to get more Ca in there, but how can i do it
w/out sending the pH through the roof?
125g whannabe reef
30g FW w/puffers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 6:55pm

lol jon, I'm hoping the reactor is a good addition.

Marcus, what size tank?  I'll be happy if mine doesn't drop below 8.

djangoboots, what are your calcium and alk levels?  With no corals and just starting coraline growth your calcium/ alk consumption should be low.  Also, kalk will precipitate phosphates out of the water you mix the kalk with but not really out of the water in the tank.   

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 7:15pm
Travis, the tank that I am helping with is a 155 Bowfront.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 9:21pm

my pH kept dropping and super buffer wasn't doing the trick anymore

What was/is your alkalinity?  If your alkalinity is ok (2.5 - 4.5 meq/l) but you still have a low pH you might consider better aeration... There's too much CO2 in the tank water.  There's an easy way to find out.  Take a glass of tank water, put an airstone in it and bubble air through it for about 2 - 6 hours, then check it's pH.  If the pH, after aeration, is ok then you need more aeration in your tank.  If your alkalinity is on the low side, add more buffer.

Re: your kalk concerns/experiences:

It sounds like your tank doesn't have a great need for calcium or alkalinity yet?  Or do you have a lot of coralline growth?  Like Travis said, you don't really have a need yet for calcium or alkalinity additions.  You really shouldn't think of kalkwasser (or a calcium reactor for that matter) as a method of increasing your calcium levels.  Kalkwasser (and calcium reactors) are for maintaining calcium and alkalnity levels.  Because it's an ionically balanced addition, there will only be 20 ppm of calcium added for every 1 meq/l (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity.  For example, if your tank had 360 ppm Ca and 3.5 meq/l alkalinity and you tried to raise your calcium level up to 420 ppm (60 ppm addition) using kalkwasser (or a calcium reactor) your alkalinity would increase to 6.5 meq/l (18.2 dKH)!!!!  That's too high and it will most likely force your calcium back down likely even lower then the starting 360 ppm!  It's a trap that many people get caught in.  Use buffer (I use baking soda) and turbo calcium to get your calcium and alkalinity where you want, then use kalkwasser (or a calcium reactor or B-ionic or any other balanced additive) to maintain those levels.  If you don't have many calcifying organisms then you don't have much need for additives.  I hope I answered your questions and wasn't too wordy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beware Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 9:22pm

The Evaporation In My Tank Varys Week To Week.  It Has Been As Low As 1-2 Gallons and As High As 7-8.  Is This Normal?  My Lighting Is On The Same Number Of Hours Every Week And Every Day...Beware

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2004 at 10:48pm
djangoboots, didn't I tell you that Jon would give some helpful information!

What is your Ca level history?

What were the day and night pH readings before? I think you told me what the pH level was before you added Kalkwasser, but I was driving and couldn't concentrate too well when you called. Sorry.

I believe that you are too worried about phosphates. The macro will start to absorb it. Are the lights on the refugia bright enough? Did you say you couldn't find PC outdoor lights? A refugia works best on an RDP schedule, that is, lights on at night and off during the day.

Also, I'm wondering why just a "g" of kalkwasser. Is that a gram or a gallon? When I've used kalkwasser I dump a couple tablespoons of lime in a five gal. bucket and use that water for all my top off. When that's gone I make another five gallons with the residue and a little more lime. The third time, I dump the residue and use new lime.

I wonder if, without much in the tank that it's not certain that you need to be adding these chemicals. Personally, I've seen a lot of beginners add chemicals that throw the whole tank chemistry out of whack. If it were me, I'd add more algae and coral and then let it be for a few months. When the algae starts growing fast, add a variety of herbivores.
You added some stuff from the local waters. Give it a couple months and see what surprises come along.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shane H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 12:25am
Jon,

I'm a bit late answering, but evap rate is definately the limiting factor. High pH is not a problem. Even dosing kalkwasser 24/7 my pH is still low (7.9 - 8.1)

And so it goes ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djangoboots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 9:21am
Jon, my Ca is holding steady @ 340 mg/l and dKH is ~11. I was
adding the kalk to try and encourage more coraline algea and
support the helimeda that wasn't looking so hot, to help bring down
the phosphates and because someone was telling me to. I am so
confused. So you say I should just add Ca (turbo Ca you say) and not
kalk, yet.

Mark, sorry the g is a gallon. I added one tsp to one ga. Those
macros need to hurry it up and suck up those phosphates (though
my NO3 are now 0ppm).. The light I have on the refug. is a 65W
"plant light" from lowe's . i figured that's 6.5 w/ga., though I am not
sure about the spectrum. they're still green and the anemone i found
is happy too (another thing that I accidentaly grabbed).
Oh my pH night reading is 8.3 and yesterday it was @ 8.6!! again.
oh and another thing mark, i bought the mag 12. I don't know if you
remember but i only had the mad 7.5 the tank came with running
about 130ga now. maybe the mag 12 will help with some things too.
i hope

Edited by djangoboots
125g whannabe reef
30g FW w/puffers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 9:37am

djangoboots, I would do some water changes with RO/DI water to bring down your phosphates if they are to high.  Relying on algae to remove them can be dangerous...  as you could get a hair algae problem sooner than not.  Macro algae will consume phosphates when nitrates are present but w/o nitrates present the consumption of phosphates by macro algae is limited. 

http://www.algone.com/phosphates.htm



Edited by Travis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 10:03am

djangoboots, you'll have problems trying to raise calcium levels using a balanced additive when your alkalinity is already 11.  If you want to increase your calcium just add some turbo calcium.  For pH stability try using a fan blowing across the tank or sump.  A powerhead pointed upwards will help too.  My advice regarding kalkwasser is to stay away from it until you have a need (more corals consuming calcium).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djangoboots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 12:55pm
can i just say
AGGHGHHGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
ok, now that i got that out i feal a little better, sorta.
Worry about phosphates....Don't worry about phosphates
Use Macros to get rid of phosphates.....macros won't wok to get rid
of phosphates.
Use kalk to get rid of phos.....kalk doesn't work to get rid of
phosphates.
Need Ca to boost coraline algae growth....not enough coraline algea
to need Ca supp.
Use kalk to help w/ pH & alk......
the list goes on.
the more i read the more confused i am. I am not stupid and I even
have a degree in chemisrty and marine bio....
this shouldn't be so complicated. I am about to start paying
someone else to take care of my tank... oh wait what fun is that and I
don't have any $$ (spent it all on tank already)
this is harder than organic chemisty and quantative analysis
combined!!!
125g whannabe reef
30g FW w/puffers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 1:05pm

Originally posted by djangoboots djangoboots wrote:


this is harder than organic chemisty and quantative analysis
combined!!!

Having had those classes I have to disagree.  Here is a way to simplify everything.  Stop testing your water.  Add nothing.  Sit and wait. 

Done!

Wasn't that easy.  I know people will disagree (and Mark will agree with me) you don't need to worry about any of that stuff.  I haven't tested my water... well forever.  Just let it be and don't try to complicate things. Smile and wait, if you keep your hands out of the tank it is a fun ride .

Adam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 1:31pm

Adam, I know another way we can simplify.  Stop using Latin...  I haven't used Latin in describing my aquarium inhabitants for... well forever.



Edited by Flaz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:18pm

Dboots,  If you have a degree in chemistry, maybe all you need is a bit of a primer on the relationship between calcium and alkalinity.  Here's a great article describing how to solve calcium and alkalinity problems and will explain why kalkwasser at this time isn't such a good idea for you:  http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Dripping kalk can, in theory, help to reduce phosphates in your tank water.  Calcium phosphate (CaPO4) is very very insoluble even more so at higher pH.  The theory is that as you drip kalk into the tank, right where you're dripping will be very high in pH (at least until it's had time to mix with the bulk water) and high in calcium concentration.  Any phosphate in that area will precipicate as CaPO4, drop to the bottom of the sump or tank and be gone.  I say this is all theory, 'cause I don't know if it actually works or not.

Algae (and coral for that matter) growth consume phophates, so yes macro growth (and subsequent harvesting) can help to reduce phosphates.  Phosphates are really only of concern (at least my understanding) to calcifying corals.  This would include coralline too.  Phosphate is a very good calcification inhibitor.

If I were you, I'd add turbo calcium to get my calcium up around 400, keep trying to grow macros and sit back and wait.  Only add kalk if the alkalinity drops down.  Like I think I said before, kalkwasser should really be thought of as an balanced alkalinity additive, not calcium.  Just my two Abrahams.

Or do nothing as Adam suggests.  It may not be optimal, but you can't really "hurt" anything that way.

Good luck. (oh ya, don't FW dip your macros )

this is harder than organic chemisty and quantative analysis
combined!!!

Au contrair.  I HATED organic chem.  I do much better applying logic to principle.  O chem was all about memorization and then getting tested on all the exceptions to the rules .  But quantatative analysis was right down my alley!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Flaz Flaz wrote:

Adam, I know another way we can simplify.  Stop using Latin...  I haven't used Latin in describing my aquarium inhabitants for... well forever.

You just may be right? 

Adam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Adam Blundell Adam Blundell wrote:

Here is a way to simplify everything.  Stop testing your water.  Add nothing.  Sit and wait. 

Done!

Wasn't that easy.  I know people will disagree (and Mark will agree with me) you don't need to worry about any of that stuff.  I haven't tested my water... well forever.  Just let it be and don't try to complicate things. Smile and wait, if you keep your hands out of the tank it is a fun ride .

Adam

And this from the president of WMAS??  What happened to providing our critters with the best environment possible??

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djangoboots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:46pm
I thought I may regret mentioning that i did a FW dip w/ the macros.
OK OK never again. I promise to let strange alien looking inverts into
my tank...
As a matter of fact i'll go get more tomorrow.
I was concerned with the phosphates b/c of the inverts in the
tank(various shrimps and crabs) I had read that they have a hard
time when phosphate levels are too high as well.

I don't know why i liked organic. i think i had a crush on the
prof...and the 8hr quant. lab didn't really apeal to me, though i will
admit quant. is a bit more usefull.
anyway...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:46pm

I agree macro algae consumes phosphate...  but at what rate.  Water changes are IMO the fastest way to reduce them.  I battled high phosphate and with an established refug, phosphate sponge and water changes it still took about 4- weeks to get the down.

I also agree with the only negative effect high phosphates have on corals is calcification but what I worry about are algae blooms. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2004 at 2:47pm
Adam & Mark's theory of sitting back and waiting will work, but not for sensitive organisms. You can a very good looking tank of soft corals and some reef fish. But I dissagree with that theory if you want to have some challenging acros or some tricky Anthias. Its all up to what you want to keep.
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