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Kevin 
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 Topic: What Might I have done wrong.
Posted: December 10 2003 at 9:59pm |
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Recently I have noticed that some of my sps corals are not very happy with me and they have pulled all of their little pollops inside of their calcium skeleton and all I can see is bare skeleton. The first that I noticed was my acropora that is brown with just a few green pollops stopped extending its pollops and its skin was not looking as full as it used to. Then 2 weeks later my pink birdnest frag just decided to bleach big time(I think that was more a matter of It was knocked off and it took me a while to find it a new place on my live rock). Now 2 weeks later 3 more sps have completely/mostly retracted their pollops and all I can see is their white skeleton. I know they are still alive and doing well but are unhappy about something. One interesting side note is that I have two frags of a paticular coral and the one on the left side of the tank couldn't be happier but the one on the right side is completly retracted. The frags that are in my tank have all been in there at least 2 months (except the xzina). I have also noticed that my brown montipora getting some white spots.
Just for some info -- My tank is 70 gallons, 2 10 gallon refugiums, 100 pounds of live rock. I have around 5-7 gph circulating my tank. My tank has been up approximatly 6 months. I have 2 clown fish, a yellow clown goby, bicolor blenny, firefish, a peppermint shrimp and some coral. I add 20 ml of both parts of bionic a day and do a 5 gallon water change every 1-2 weeks.
The major changes that took place right before the major stuff started happening was friday I bought 2 firefish and a red foot moon snail. One of the firefish died that night so I went back and got a bicolor blenny. Also on saturday I recieved a few cuttings of xzina and they have spent the last 3 days attaching and now look full and happy. Also one of my metal halides is on the fritz and it keeps going on and off but it is on the opposite side of the tank as where the unhappyness is.
All of my water parameters test perfect so I am clueless as to what might be happening and I would like to stop the process that has started.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 10 2003 at 11:07pm |
You say "I know they are still alive and doing well but are unhappy about something." Is the flesh transparent or gone? When you see white skeleton with no flesh for more than a couple days that part of the coral is dead.  It sounds to me like an alkalinity or water temperature problem, perhaps from months ago or it could be that disease which decimates entire tanks of SPS and fields of it in the wild. It may be RTN for Rapid Tissue Necrosis. Do a search on "coral RTN" and you will surely find a lot of questions but few definite answers. Someone here on the board has surely had this or studied it and can suggest the best course of action. Here is an interesting link regarding a stress induced, but reversable, bleaching problem occurring in some reefs: http://www.marinebiology.org/coralbleaching.htm Your tank may have an epidemic going on at this point and it may be too late to stop it. Some coral may survive, because just like the flu virus, some people are unaffected or if affected, they recover. Sorry this isn't better news.
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Kevin
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Posted: December 10 2003 at 11:35pm |
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Sorry, I didn't explain the corals better because I didn't know their names. The brown coral with green polops I believe is some sort of acropora and looks like it has a brown skin and it doesn't look bad it just doesn't look healthy like it used to.
The other corals that seem retracted don't really have a skin but have a ton of small polops that stick out of the coral. At night most of the pollops seem to retract but not go all the way inside the skeleton. When you touch the coral then all the polops go inside and it leaves a skeleton with a whole bunch of black holes. This is what the coral looks like at the moment.
The reason why I assume that the coral is still healthy is because I have seen it in a similar state before but usually because my goby sat on it and it usually came back out in an hour to a day. This time I don't know what is causing it to stay retracted for so long.
I am going to do a 5 gallon water change tonight and look again in the morning. Also I will check my alkalinity and calcium and see if they dropped for some reason.
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Shane H
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 9:53am |
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I would double check your alkalinity results.
Especially if you are beginning to see tissue receding on your SPS corals.
If is is RTN then begin fragging immediately. Remove the healthy portions of your corals from the parent colony. You may save a portion this way.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 10:35am |
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Shane's advice is solid.
I doubt that frequent water changes are going to help. In fact, the more water is changed the more stress to the organisms. Did you know that freshly mixed saltwater is caustic? It is very base, the opposite of acid and it burns in a different way than acid burns.
The suggested and ideal water change frequency and amount is 10% per month. More or less than this, in typical circumstances is not better.
If you live close, I would be willing to come look at things and take some pics or alternatively if you could post some pics, it would really help us give better advice.
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 10:55am |
 Mark Peterson wrote:
I doubt that frequent water changes are going to help. In fact, the more water is changed the more stress to the organisms. |
I'll disagree with this. I can't imagine ever doing to many water changes. In my mind, if you can change 80% of your water every day, then do it. Water changes almost always help the situation, and very rarely make it worse.
If anything, I think people on this board should be encouraging water changes, not the other way around.
Adam
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Carl
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 11:27am |
Wow Adam, you're weird. 
I also agree that water changes are beneficial, but I STRONGLY disagree that the more (in quantity and frequency) the merrier. An 80% water change would be similar to mixing up a batch of salt water and throwing a fish (or whatever) into it without acclimation!
Water exchange is good. It revitalizes the water and it's elements. It adds fresh oxygen and is kindof like visiting an oxygen bar, not that I have ever been to one, but I have heard. But I think that it is equally important to be somewhat scheduled and controlled.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 12:05pm |
There is something that existing tank water has that recently mixed salt water lacks. Life. Also there is the caustic nature of newly mixed saltwater until it has aerated for a while. In the case of this bleaching or RTN, water changes are not the answer, IMO, unless there is a problem in the water parameters. Almost 10% water changes already occur at weekly to bi-weekly intervals. This is more than sufficient to provide needed water quality and trace elements especially when dosing with B-Ionic, which by the way, I look at as another possible cause for the problem. It's happened before with too much B-Ionic... recently right here on the message board. 
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Marcus
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 1:26pm |
I'm not trying to turn into a poll or anything, but here are my thoughts: I agree with Adam that large changes can/will be very beneficial. I agree with Carl, that it can also be like not acclimating a fish, but you can avoid this by making sure that your water salinities and temps are the same first. You can go down a little in salinity quickly but not up. Mark said that newly mixed salt water can be caustic, I agree to a point. On the Instant Ocean bag, it is written, "Although the solution of Instant Ocean premium sea salt can be used immediately, we suggest aerating the water until it reaches oxygen/carbon dioxide equilibrium." Who's to say how long it should be mixed for? I feel a couple hours is sufficient. I have seen entire water changes done without loss of life. The key is not to disrupt the substrate. Granted, if the new water had a very different salinity and temp, then I'll bet there would be a problem. As for Kevin's sps issues. THAT SUCKS! SPS are expensive and when they don't do well IT SUCKS!!! Can you tell it sucks? Many variables are at work here. Can you fix your halide soon? I wonder if the sps are closing off and on throught the day when the halide turns on and off. If not, it was worth a try. Second, your tank should be able to withstand the newly added bio-load so that shouldn't be a problem. I think I would agree with the akalinity theory. But run down to your LFS and get it checked. Have them give you a number not just "Its good." A good number to one person may not be good to another. Kevin, you wrote, "I have 5-7 gph circulating through my tank." Huh? Do you mean 5-7x an hour or 500-700 gph? I don't get it.  How deep is your substrate? DO you have cyano or any other undesirable bacteria growing in your main tank or your refugias? Are you skimming? Are you running a reactor? You said that your parameters tested perfect, what were the numbers? Just my input. Hope it help!
Edited by Marcus
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jfinch
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 1:29pm |
I agree with Adam  . The more the merrier! However much salt you can afford (and spare time you got) is how much water you should change.
Mark your showing you age by talking about caustic salt mixes . Most mixes now days use more bicarbonate salts then carbonates and mix to a usable pH. 5 minutes of severe agitation of the fresh salt mix is all that's need to bring the mix to equalibrium CO2 and pH levels, ime.
I've never changed 80% of the water in a saltwater tank, but I have in a freshwater one without any problem. There's no reason, I can think of, why this wouldn't be the same in saltwater. The biological "filter" is the sand and rock and other surfaces, not the water. And changing water does nothing to increase dissolved oxygen.
Back to Kevin's concern. I saw Kevin's tank last Saturday (Kevin, you'll curse me for giving you xenia ). I don't really think he has a problem, unless things have changed since then. The polyps on his SPS are retracted, but the coral is still colored. His plating monti's look very good, imo! My acros don't extend polyps much either, but they grow just fine. To me this goes back to the discussion of why some acros are "hairy" in your tank but a frag of the same stuff in my tank will be "hairless". Kevin, take some pictures for us if you can.
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 1:41pm |
Just to clarify, I never said anything about mixing up 50 gal of salt water and dumping it in a 75 gal tank or anything like that. I'll stand by my 80% daily change because of this. What if you have new water mixed in a seperate aquarium, and it's been in there for 2 weeks. Then you start a slow siphon so it slowly runs in your main tank all day. By the end of the day about 80% of your tank water has overflown your sump and is on your carpet.
I think this would be great. I think most chemical and biological problems in our tanks can be fixed, or at least helped, by large water changes. The stress and caustic issues are easy to get around.
Adam
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 10:01pm |
Carl, Marcus, Jon and Adam - y'all are probably correct. Thanks for the information. Here are two pics of the coral in question that Kevin asked me to post. It doesn't look that bad! Maybe the defective light has it irritated?  
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Kevin
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 10:37pm |
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Did you only get the 2 pictures Mark? There were actually 2 others. The one on top is in the middle of the tank is is starting to have white spots appear. The one on the bottom I was giving an example of the one that looks good. This is under the halide that keeps turning on and off. On the other side there is another one of these and a brown pollop stony that has similar pollops that have totally retracted so it is showing just its white skeleton under neath.
I wasn't able to go to the fish store today but I did measure my alk and my calcium. According to my test kits my alk is at 2.5-3.0 meg/L. My calcium is at around 280 and I have noticed it steadily decreasing over the past month or two. It was at 340 a month ago.
I did a water change and it looks like some of the brown pollops may be comming out but definatly not all of them.
I will take a water sample tomarrow and see how it goes.
One other question, with my calcium decreasing like it is I had John suggest that I start dripping lime water at about a half gallon throughout the night. Should I wait to start this until my corals are looking better or should I start immediatly?
Edited by Kevin
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 11:06pm |
  I can't make out anything in these shots, but here they are. Start dripping Kalkwasser immediately. My guess is that insufficient Ca is the problem in a clamshell!
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Kevin
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Posted: December 11 2003 at 11:16pm |
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Well, those pictures are kind of cruddy. If it was clear you could see that none of the pollops are out on the larger coral on the right. Also on the bottom picture on the left side in the middle is another very small coral(slightly bits of orange) exactly like the one shown in the previous post.
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jfinch
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Posted: December 12 2003 at 8:28am |
Kevin, as I'm sure you are aware, your calcium is very low but your alkalinity is ok. The water changes should have helped to increase the calcium. Alternatively, you could add some Turbo Calcium (or similar) to boost it up around 400 ppm, then continue adding B-ionic to keep your alkalinity around 3 meq/l. Kalkwasser usage should help to decrease your dependence ($$$) on B-ionic, but keep a close eye on your pH while you get the hang of using kalkwasser.
I'm no coral expert, but if your sps are turning white then that is a problem. When I was there last weekend, I didn't notice any white areas. I've not had good luck getting sps to recolor after turning white. Mine usually die if that happens. In my case it's usually because they've been stung by another coral or aptasia.
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Marcus
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Posted: December 12 2003 at 11:41am |
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What's the conversion from dKH to meg/L?
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jfinch
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Posted: December 12 2003 at 11:46am |
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2.8 dKH per 1 meq/l
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Marcus
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Posted: December 12 2003 at 5:53pm |
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I do think that the alkalinity is a little low. I would run my alkalinity about 10-12 dKH or 3.5-3.8 meg/L. But that's just me.
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Posted: December 12 2003 at 6:00pm |
I should have said greater then 3 meq/l, because I agree with Marcus. I target 4 - 4.5 meq/l (11-13 dKH) in my own tank. By way of comparison, the ocean is 2.5 meq/l. But I don't think his alkalinity of 2.5 - 3 meq/l would cause his problems, imo.
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